The KOINLocal6.com lede says it all:
A local business owner is flabbergasted after a shipment of 30 toy guns for his store was confiscated by ATF agents in Tacoma.
It gets more flabbergasting:
Special Agent Kelvin Crenshaw said the toys can be easily retro-fitted into dangerous weapons.
"With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun," Crenshaw said.
Really? Define "easily." Define "minimal work."
MyNorthwest.com gives us some clues:
"In its present state, our firearms technology branch classified this as a machine gun," said Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms special agent Kelvin Crenshaw.
ATF agents determined that the rifles as shipped from Taiwan were tooled to shoot plastic balls. However ATF says a relatively quick retooling could allow them to fire live ammunition.
Relative to what? Would "a quick retooling" involve completely replacing the barrel, bolt, upper and lower receivers and trigger assembly? What all needs to be swapped out to handle the immense pressure differences between something capable of firing plastic BBs and something that can fire...let's see, it's being reported as an M4 copy, so I'd assume this...
The Seattle Times' "The Blotter" has made some assumptions:
The machine guns were turned over to the ATF to be destroyed.
What, they're real guns, no "conversion necessary"...?
We can perhaps forgive the reporter, though--he's only following the government's lead:
On Feb. 8, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officers at the Tacoma Seaport seized a shipment of 30 machineguns (M-4 automatic rifles) that arrived in a 40-foot ocean container on Oct. 20, 2009.
Is that official ignorance—or a calculated lie?
When this story first came to my attention, I thought it must be a satire piece from The Onion and all the news agencies had fallen for it. For now, absent further information, all we can do is speculate and ask questions.
For instance, where does ATF get authority to seize these facsimiles? Does the FTB classify them as "firearms"?
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
If so, can we expect to see charges filed beyond shipment seizure for violations of firearms import and transfer laws?
Can we see a list of steps, tools, materials and component parts necessary to "easily retrofit [the seized toys] into dangerous weapons" so that they won't blow up in your face the first time you try to fire one?
What level of gunsmithing skills would be required?
How about a public demonstration, perhaps on YouTube, to show us the "minimal work" involved?"
How much would all this conversion cost?
See, it's critical that we all know what they mean by "readily...converted." Because based on what they have to do to turn parts and materials into a U.S. Code-defined "firearm," many of us may unwittingly be in possession of all kinds of things that meet their criteria, and thus unknowingly in very real and serious legal jeopardy. And woe unto us if they further decide what we have innocently purchased and possessed qualifies as a "machinegun," carrying attendant National Firearms Act violation penalties. That's not something that ought to be arbitrary, or at the government's discretion to have us to find out by surprise.
It gets better. The business owners victimized by this have been told they need to file a Freedom of Information Act request in order to see the procedures ATF used to determine these toys are readily convertible. And as noted in this YouTube video, ATF's "expert" authority on the matter initially tries to insert a magazine backwards! Seriously!
Of most immediate concern, should every shop selling similar Airsoft-type guns, and every owner of one, now fear a raid and confiscation?
And of most importance, with "shall not be infringed" as their mandate, just where the hell do federal "Only Ones" armed with real machineguns get off not trusting sovereign adults—who are supposed to be their masters—with toys?
UPDATE: "Airsoft Outlet Northwest gives the scoop on the Tacoma Seizure, an industry without a standard"
The WE TTI M4’s lack any sort of functional gas tube which is integral to an AR15’s operation
The upper receiver of an AR15 fits onto the lower of the WE TTI M4
The stock trigger pack in the WE TTI cannot strike the firing pin of a AR15 bolt
The body of the WE TTI lower is several mils thinner than an AR15 lower, and shims would be needed for any AR trigger pack to work
The trigger pack of an AR15 appears to be able to fit onto the lower receiver of a WE TTI M4, one of the AR15 trigger pack retaining pins is impossible to insert without major modification, and the hammer isn’t operable with the WE TTI lower.
So essentially these Airsoft replicas cannot even operate an AR15 trigger pack without heavy modification with a precise tooling system operated by someone who knows the specific measurements to drill and tap the WE TTI lower receiver.
Comments
I have been following this one and can't believe my eyes. This is so over the top and yet its allowed because no one in the system seems to have the upper position in the pay grade to step in with some common sense to put a stop to it.
We have to ask ourselves, is this the same government out of Washington DC we want to have running our health care? This case should be a current classic example for why this federal government is not able or has the ability to run our health car. If they don't know a toy gun that is impossible to fire a real bullet isn't a toy gun. And no one or agency in that federal government hasn't the common sense to put a stop to such an injustice. Than we need to hold this classic example of government gone wild up as an example for all to see. This could be the agency's actions many have been waiting for to roast ATF with. Frankly, I can't believe I'm seeing what I'm seen in this matter.
It gets even dumber. The Connecticut General Assembly just tried to get a Hollywood loophole (HR 5158) in the state's toy gun ban.
I'd love to see an ATF agent try to test-fire one of these modified Airsoft weapons. Then again, I really would rather the government not have to pay some idiot disability just because he did something a sane person would think is ludicris.
More proof that the ATF are Nazi's and cowards and that our country has gone to Hell.
That something so assinine isn't very promptly stopped might almost cause one to consider that there may be an agenda involved...
ATF is so stupid. Even if it were true, instead of patently ridiculous, that these toys could be converted to full auto rifles, that still doesn't mean that ATF gets to seize them. The civilian versions of the full autos would be a much more feasible starting point for conversion, yet ATF doesn't get to go around confiscating THOSE. Idiots. And I say that at the risk of giving idiocy a bad name.
Looks as if plumbers, carpenters, and mechanics will soon be required to obtain a FFL and be subjected to arbitrary search and seizure at the whim of the BATFU's.
Any competent craftsman can "readily convert" wood, springs, nails, and metal or plastic pipe into a fire arm.
Idiots, idiots, idiots, malevolent idiots. Every damn one of them.
[W-III]
I'm wondering if this company didn't machine a AR Lower that is actually compatible with a select-fire AR parts. If I'm not mistaken, the Lower is THE gun. Not the trigger, upper, barrel, stock etc. If the Lower could be extracted and after-market parts added to it, then they might have a case. Especially if the Lower could accept FA LPK.
Of course to substantiate their case, it is not enough to say that it could be made into a semi-auto...they would need to sex it up a bit and make sure it fell squarely into their 'jurisdiction' by saying that it is a full-auto 'just waiting' to be built up. Even if the Lower is made out of a polymer, and if it could be retro-fitted, then there could be cause for concern.
I just wish they gave the name of the Airsoft company that made this egregious error...reminds me of Operation Dragonfire...maybe somebody's budget was about to be cut, so they drummed up some 'new value'...
I am disgusted with the inept and uneducated responses of that illegal law enforcement branch the BATF - their ONLY job is to enforce Un- Consitutional measures hence the reason they dont need brains!
Here is a link to one disassembled: airsplat.com/items/GR-WE-CQBR-GBB.htm
It looks like the pins in the trigger group are accurately placed and could be removed. My guess is that one could argue that it is a 100% complete lower and qualifies as an unregistered firearm.
From the pictures it looks like the airsoft barrel outer diamter specs match that of a real AR 223 and that those parts including the front sight, recoil buffer and handguard Delta ring are compatible. Change out the LPK, add a barrel, put a real BCG in and it starts to look possible. All those parts are 'uncontrolled' and available from anywhere.
Without getting my hands on one and doing the conversion myself, it is still speculative, but the pictures and the company testify that it is as accurate to detail as possible.
I'll bet some government/LE/SWAT types were training with it and an armorer started joking about how it could be converted and they all stopped laughing...awkward!
Is someone trying to justify/protect their job? Looking for fodder for yearly performance reviews? Doesn't know what a toy is? Screwed up thinking the shipment was real guns and instead of looking foolish confiscated them anyway? Something is going on here beyond is visible on the surface.
Remember, folks, we're talking about the people who classified a shoelace as a machine gun. Between that, this, and Olofson, I'm not sure what ISN'T a machine gun anymore.
ATF is seizing toy guns because they are an organization of brainless cowards who feel they need to "justify" their inflated paychecks. It is not possible to convert those toys into firearms and the ATF knows it. But, these are the same imbeciles who declared a shoe string was a "machine gun" (jpfo.org/common-sense/cs55.htm)
It's not just the BATFE, folks!
EPA has recently been told they are required under the Clean Air Act to regulate CO2 as a dangerous polutant. That's the stuff you breathe out several times a minute.
Remember the one about the three most often told lies in the English language? I'm referring to one of the clean versions.
1. One size fits all.
2. The check is in the mail.
3. I'm from the Federal Government and I'm here to help you.
Watching the ATF is like watching a circus, except all the animals at the ATF are retarded. Hey Larry, where's Curly and Moe?
There may be a method to this madness. Do not forget that Airsoft toys are used in force-on-force exercises which, I've been told, make the training more realistic. If true, then training with Airsoft guns improves a citizen's chances of survival in a certain deadly force encounters. So which do you think the BATFEces want to go up against: A citizen with delusions of being Rambo or one with a more realistic attitude about gun fighting?
Looks like the arisoft version of Waco
NUTS!
I had one of these, they are plastic, mine was top of the line...cost 800 dollars, it is realistic in every way, they take all the real accessories the real ones take.....except one thing, it does not come apart like the real one, the lower and upper are made of PLASTIC and if a round was SOMEhow fired from it, the whole thing would blow apart. This is just propaganda, we used to practice CQC all the time, remember the big deal they made when paintball came out...it was terrorist traing, they want dumb sheep.....they are too late....and why again are we even debating this? DRAW THE LINE!!! they will come to you, they wont stop until you are licking boots.
Real men would have refused to confiscate a bunch of plastic toys. Pretty soon you'll see kids in jail for pointing a 'finger gun' at someone.
"just where the hell do federal "Only Ones" armed with real machineguns get off not trusting sovereign adults—who are supposed to be their masters—with toys?"
David, I think this is just exactly what the point of this whole absurdity is. A little nose-drubbing for the plebes, just to remind us of who runs this town.
They are escalating this crap, doubtless on purpose. We'll not have to wait long for the next one.
Eyes and ears, everyone.
They're either complete imbeciles now, or they're picking on those they know can't shoot back with real weapons. I think theyare actually beginning to fear the armed citizen. Many of us thnk we have nothing left to lose, and will fight.
Two things: First I'm going to get my "racist" on. Might as well get it out of the way since Mr. Thomasson is obviously an Affirmative Action hire and noting that is considered racist.
Mr. Thomasson is obviously an Affirmative Action hire. But that isn't why he did this. He did this because he would starve to death in a real job, if he could somehow keep one. So he must follow the agenda. It is no secret that ATF has become more visible and more openly active in the last few months. They are doing their best to destroy any meaningful exercise of the 2nd Amendment before the courts make their illegal activities even illegaler. They are not worried about being held to official responsibility, no matter the court rulings and congressional hearings condemning their actions.
They are not worried because they have never obeyed them before, they have perjured, manufactured evidence, hid exculpatory evidence, threatened judges, ignored judicial instructions and (cont)
(cont)intentionally misinterpreted the law to arrive at illegitimate rules and regulations and nothing ever happened to them.
No, they are worried that with the struggles between the people of liberty and the ATF's criminal cabal becoming more widely known by the general public, that the traditional respect Americans have for order will be set aside as more and more see them for the treasonous criminals they are.
What really scares them is that with that public awareness comes the parallel awareness that if justice is to be served the American people will realize it must be done extra-legally. Ergo, the push to condition the public psyche to subservience and fear.
They will lose.
Quotes from the three news sources linked in David’s Column:
“ATF said it also seized the toys because they are missing the blaze orange tips required on all imported toy guns.”
“Customs officers say the rifles were of the same size, weight and look as an M-4 automatic rifle, a weapon used by the U.S. military. They bore no serial numbers as a genuine gun would, but also lacked the orange-blaze tip that is required of all imported toy guns.”
“The rifles had no serial numbers and did not have an orange-blaze tip which is required for all imported of toy guns.”
Just for the heck of it I looked up the requirements as to the “required” blaze orange tips.
Code of Federal Regulations Title 15, Volume 3
PART 1150 MARKING OF TOY, LOOK-ALIKE AND IMITATION FIREARMS
Sec. 1150.1 Applicability.
This part applies to toy, look-alike, and imitation firearms … This part does not apply to:
(b) Traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projecti
Continued:
(b) Traditional B-B, paint-ball, or pellet-firing air guns that expel a projectile through the force of compressed air, compressed gas or mechanical spring action, or any combination thereof ,..
Obviously, The BATFUs as well as the Customs Agents who reported the shipment to the BATFUs haven’t bothered to read the regulations they think they are enforcing. The only other conclusion one could reach is that they’re just liars and thieves.
[W-III]
"Alcohol,Tobaccco,Firearms and explosives"...sounds like a great party!
Seriously,how crazy must it drive our bureucratic rulers to realize that there are 80 million gun owners in the US?
I don't mean plastic toys either,but the real ones that we have a right to in order to keep these disgusting tyrants in line.
Next they'll take all our trees. With minimal work they can be converted to a club. With a little know how that tree can turn into a stock.
Arrow, made a point that went through my mind, first off when I was pushing the button to play the video. Anyone remember the other Affirmative Action employee of BATFE that crapped on herself while hassling a gun store here in Idaho? I laugh thinking of the brown spot photos David posted up. You can't make this stuff up.
It seems we are now seeing a pattern of Affirmative Action employees involved with the very worst attempts at law enforcement of laws by over reaching misinterpretation. Granted we all are guilty of making mistakes but with the federal government field agents that make mistakes are seen as generating business for lawyers at the DOJ. This injustice done against the citizens is seen by folks in the government as part of the game because the citizen can get their fair day in court. Never mind the cost to do so. Somewhere between the field agents and the lawyers at the DOJ there needs to be some kind of real oversight to stop this kind of lunacy from moving forward.
Somewhere between the field agents and the lawyers at the DOJ there needs to be some kind of real oversight to stop this kind of lunacy from moving forward.
That should be the supervisors and managers but they are case driven. They are pressured by the brass at HQ to get cases so the brass can use such case numbers to get more money out of congress. This is the source of the problem, one way of ending this is to give this agency a fixed amount of money each year and no cost for inflation. That will remove the driven agenda to generate cases at all cost.
“When toy guns are outlawed only outlaws will have toy guns”
Sometimes I wish someone would pinch me so I can wakeup from this night-mare.
I had originally heard that the Air-soft lower could fit onto an AR15 upper and hold AR15 firing control parts.
But from David’s story we know that’s a farce AR15 trigger parts will not fit without shimming and other work.
Bottom line we don’t need the BATF(E) in any form
As far as the clown in the video definitely “affirmative action”
Notice how the ATF always puts certain people in front of the camera?
Remember WACO and the affidavit they used for the warrant and the agent involved claimed he got his info by talking to other agents? The affidavit had the wrong name and never defined a crime
Well, plastic jackboots on plastic thugs need plastic weapons to seize. But on the bright side - NOW we all know what to do!
go home tonight and paint a bright blaze orange tip on our barrels, shrouds, flash hiders and suppressors. THEN they will be safe !!
Yep, these are the kinds of experts who have been assuring us for all these years we would soon be dead from CO2 poisoning and the Earth would be one giant ball of flames.
Why is the ATF seizing toy guns? They don't have a frigging clue. I guess it's like the highway dept; Use what you're given this year, or next year they'll Cut Back on what you get; Funding, Toys, Equipment etc. My question is: Who's the idiot judge who signed the search warrant for the ATF to raid, looking for toy guns. And here's food for thought: Just because something "Might" be Duhhhhh Retro-fit or changed into something else, doesn't mean it IS or that any Laws are being broken. Hitler's War Criminal buddies did the same thing. It's all about "Control" and nothing more. Accept "More" for them and less for all the rest of us. Remember: We have more Rights to keep our weapons than They have to take them away. If a law is Unconstitutional then it's illegal and you have the Right to protect your lawfully acquired property. The govt. breaks more laws than we do every second of every day, than we do in an entire lifetime. What's that tell you? Answer: "Thugs" !!
Just one more question: Why do Tax Collecting Bean Counters have guns and why do they cover their faces? They don't even have a Right to carry weapons. When's the last time you entered your accountants' office and he had a Colt 45 on his hip, wearing a ski mask? Siek Heil !!! Siek Heil !!! You Jackbooted Hitler asskissing nazi pieces of sheit !!
I played with a toy gun once. It made me want to rape and kill.
Steiner says:
Real men would have refused to confiscate a bunch of plastic toys. Pretty soon you'll see kids in jail for pointing a 'finger gun' at someone.
February 28, 8:56 PM
But that is it. They are not men. Real men leave people alone who have not picked their pocket or broke their leg. If these were real men, they would be doing something productive in their lives. They are, for the most part ... "legal" punks who like to punk people under the color and protection of "law".
Forest Gump with a badge - it's an insult to Effing Retards, Thank You Rahm Emanuel.
Don K
You asked: Really? Define "easily." Define "minimal work."
It's really very easy. All you need to do is replace all the plastic parts with metal parts, make the barrel bigger and get rid of the orange plug in the nose, add a magazine (and the well to hold one), and, presto! you have a real gun. Of course, I'm not a gunsmith, so I may have missed a step ;)
Why stop with toy guns? You know, a metal pipe can be "easily" and with "minimal work" converted into a pipe bomb, so I guess all of the hardware stores and plumbing companies should expect to be raided next.
And then there's the alternate use of fertilizer...you know, like Timothy McVeigh used it. (Remember, McVeigh's the military veteran that apparently makes the government suspect all veterans as being potential terrorists.) I guess the lawn and garden stores and landscaping companies will be on the ATF's hit list as well.
And, oh, don't forget glass bottles. They can be used for Molotov cocktails. So the bottle companies will be next on the list...and then the gasoline companies, because gasoline can be used to make those Molotov cocktails as well. And then there's the cloth to stick in the end of the gas-filled bottles...add textile companies to the list.
And cars...you know, they can "easily" and with "minimal work" be converted into a car bomb...
SEE CONTINUATION
CONTINUATION:
ON THE UPSIDE: Global Warming is bound to hit full force pretty soon (after all the record snowfall melts), so when they confiscate:
-- all our clothing (to keep us from making wicks for the Molotov cocktails)
-- our cars (because both cars and gas are too dangerous for us poor schmucks to use properly),
-- and our drink bottles & indoor plumbing (so we can't use the bottles and pipes for bomb-making)...
we won't get cold walking to work...or to the outhouse...or to the creek for a drink of water.
Oh my gosh! Worst of all, they'll probably outlaw all of the old MacGyver reruns as well...
Is there any question why my FBI special agent friends consider the BATFE the "special needs" component of federal law enforcement? - Col Bob Maddocks, USMC (Retired)
How to convert a WE TTI M4 to an AR15:
WE TTI M4 = $400-450
AR15 upper receiver = $200
AR15 = $800-1000
Many other parts, tooling, time, etc.
There is no financial reason to do this. It is easier, quicker and cheaper to buy an AR15.
BUT if one would like an expensive, illegal, problematic, dangerous hobby that would result in an unreliable weapon... go for it.
Good I hate those little airsoft guns anyway. Get a real gun for christsakes you freaking p*ssies.
Oh dear, my spud gun made from PVC pipe must be next. They'll out law hair spray and spray deodorants I use to propel projectiles. This is just a government agency jumping the gun over nothing, what do expect when the nation is run by retards.
If the lower receiver can be slightly modified to accept an ar-15 upper, then I can understand the seizure. You can buy every piece of an AR-15 without a license, with the exception of the lower receiver which is a single piece of metal. If minor retooling makes these lower receivers viable, then congrats ATF, job well done.
ATF:
1) Incompetent
2) Way too much time on your hands.
"AR-15 owner"apparently didn't read everything. An upper will technically fit on one of these plastic and pot metal lowers, but will not operate because dimensions aren't spec'd to M-16 dimensions. Like an M-16 trigger will fit with extensive modification of the toy lower, but still will not operate with the upper for the same spec reasons.
Basically, somebody mistook realistic airsoft guns for the real thing, and are too embarrassed to admit it now. Probably Mr. Backwards Magazine himself.
"bahama mama", I understand what you mean. But these aren't the things you generally see in Wal-Mart. These are high end airsoft meant for wargamers and tactical training.
Brutis, you may have missed the recent news story wherein some little kid WAS arrested for pointing a finger gun at someone, the end is near.
They just don't want the citizenry practicing war-games and becoming proficient with anything that slightly resembles a military weapon.
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