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"Why is ATF seizing 'toy guns'?" I asked in my Feb. 28 Gun Rights Examiner column. We were discussing the bureau's seizure of a shipment of 30 Airsoft-type guns—the kind that shoot plastic pellets—and an agent's claim that "with minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun."
KOINlocal6.com provides us with a follow-up. Go ahead and watch the video and we'll hook up on the other side.
Reporter Alexis del Cid does a fair job summarizing the issues. One thing I do wish she'd given us, though, is the name of the "ATF spokesperson." Holding "public servants" personally accountable for statements and actions on their part that affect the public liberty is one way of making sure they consider such actions with care.
The thing that's immediately noticeable is ATF has gone into full weasel-word mode.
These people, amidst great media fanfare, have seized thousands of dollars worth of private property from a family-owned business under the guise of law enforcement. And now they're avoiding direct questions.
Why?
The anonymous spokesperson refused to answer the "point blank" question "Does the ATF believe these toys can be converted into deadly weapons...?"
Why?
What does deferring to the legal definition of a "machinegun" have to do with this unless ATF's position is that these are machine guns?
What are we to make of ATF's assertion that "this is more of a public awareness issue and that the real danger is how realistic these toys look"? Since when is raising public awareness cause for seizing property? What does that have to do with the legal definition of a machine gun?
And what's with the excuse that ATF can't answer if they will start confiscating Airsoft toys from stores because they "haven't been called"? They're aware of Airsoft Outlet NW. They see the guns displayed on the wall. If they're right about the toys being machine guns, what excuse can they possibly offer for not raiding the store and seizing all suspect "machine guns" that can be "readily converted"?
Now that they've raised "public awareness," what excuse do they have for not arresting the proprietors—since "willfulness" is a criterion for criminal charges? Doesn't ATF now consider them to be aware of "violations"?
In order to be consistent, ATF must now raid every shop in the land that sells such "toys," and every internet vendor. They must attack the problem from both ends, not only closing down wholesalers/distributors, but also putting on a full court press to get these "deadly machine guns" out of all private hands.
Why wouldn't they, if they truly believe their are now untold tens of thousands of machine guns out there "in the wild"? This would seem to be the bureau's Number One Priority.
Funny—I don't see a directive to do that. I don't see a press release or an industry notice. I don't see them ATF the media to get out the word and gin up the fanfare. Why not?
Instead I see them refusing to answer questions. I see them hiding.
I wonder why? I wonder what they have to hide?
They're even hiding from the man they seized the property from. As we noted in our last installment, "The business owners victimized by this have been told they need to file a Freedom of Information Act request in order to see the procedures ATF used to determine these toys are readily convertible."
There is another way, a path shown to us courtesy of firearms designer Len Savage: Demand that the United States Department of Justice arrest the seized property in a civil forfeiture action under Supplemental Rule G(3)(c). This will take away the deferential treatment ATF would receive under the Administrative Procedures Act and require them to disclose everything through discovery: testing procedures, reports, emails—either that or give the property back. It would require them to prove that a crime occurred. And, rather than ducking questions and refusing to answer, it would require them to answer under deposition—that is, interrogations under oath...
But then, I forget who we're talking about here...
Related: Bob Owens tells me via email:
I have a 3-part series starting at Pajamas Media today about the Customs/ATF "bust" of airsoft guns that the ATF claims can be easily converted into Class III weapons, and thought you might find it interesting.
Indeed I do.
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Reminder: 'No sheriff left behind' tour
Today is the first day of Sheriff Richard Mack's Ohio tour. I'll be presenting this calendar throughout the rest of the week:
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TODAY, March 9 Findlay, OH - sponsored by The Findlay 912 Project
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Wednesday, March 10 Columbus, OH - sponsored by Buckeye Firearms Foundation
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Thursday, March 11 Cincinnati, OH - sponsored by the Cincinnati 912 Project
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Friday, March 12 Marietta, OH - sponsored by The Marietta OH 9-12 Project
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Saturday, March 13 Akron, OH - sponsored by The Ohio Second Amendment Group
Comments
When the owner of the store was on the Alex Jones show, he said that he called the ATF in D.C. and that they said they had no authority to do that. When he tried to give the contact info of the lady he talked to in d.c to the atf in Oregon they said they didn't care.
Why are the questions being ducked? Because the answers would show ATF as the spineless, brainless, and evil fools they truly are.
They'll only make up lies if they ever do "answer" anyway. This is the *government* we are talking about, after all.
I think these freaking idiots really and truly couldn't tell these were airsoft when they confiscated them, and now simply don't know how to justify their stupidity. Just remember the agent inserting the magazine.
The store owner is a victim of a constitutional tort. Th store needs to be awarded millions in damages and the agents involved need to be fired. Selling toys is not a crime.
Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
David, this is great. Keep up the flashlight work. Every evasion is telling, every eye-averting an important illustration of what Jeff Cooper used to say about criminals of all stripes:
They expect you to obey. They do not like to fight. Fighting makes the whole matter inconvenient.
Fight with the flashlight, first. It's polite and serves as fair warning. If they press the point beyond that...well, I for one don't want to hear squat about shock and surprise.
Here we go again..
I don't own a gun, I have never been around guns, although I would love to go to a gun range one day :), and I have to say this is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. If it were so easy to turn a fake plastic air gun into a real gun, wouldn't criminals buy these instead of going through the trouble of buying a real one?
The botched raid on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas that resulted in 87 the murder of harmless men women and children, was precipitated by an erroneous claim that the Davidians were "stockpiling" weapons. Later, it was discovered that members of the group were legal gun dealers and their "stockpile" was actually merely inventory. As in this case, rights abused by federal agencies are never prosecuted and victims are bereft of vindication or legal recourse. Just another in the long train of abuses that have subjected us to absolute tyranny. The federal government is nothing more than a criminal mob with badges and fancy rituals.
Stomp Stomp Stomp the stormtroopers of modern progressive thinking are the BATF and their leaders are every politician who denies involvement or directs that same involvement. Stand up Americans, change this by getting rid of ANY of the old guard that is not 110% ready to fight for your rights!
Marsha, where do you live? We are very friendly and appreciate a chance to expose "newbys" to firearms and the responsibilities that go with them. If you post your city/state, I would bet someone here will volunteer to help you with your ambition to visit the range.
I still have flashbacks to this day; I was a skinny kid, thick glasses fogging up, fatigues sopping wet with ten pounds of Southeast Asian humidity and G.I sweat. The LT had just walked over a ridge when we all heard that telltale sound - '"Sping spink spinkspink..." "Owee, damn, I'm hit!"
Sure enough - Charlie had been waiting in ambush and suddenly cut loose with a murderous barrage of Airsoft fire, a lethal hail of plastic pellets reducing the LT to a mass of bruised flesh.
The Old Man, they called him Gunny, never slowed down to think. He returned fire with a blistering fusillade of his own plastic pellets, and the screams of the retreating VC were the sounds of victory that day.
One of the guys was so badly marked on his buttock , he put in for a Purple Heart, name was Kerry; but the LT just shook it off. Later, he joined another combat force, the BAT-FU, the "Fighting Blue Falcons" and assisted in raids on dangerous toy shops. He said, 'Remember - Buddy is only half the wor
The ATF is an illegal entity, they are policing things protected under the constitution, freedom means there are no police. They know these toy guns cant fire real bullets without being destroyed and hurting or killing the operator. They either are trying to justify themseves for more control, or their master has a squable with the owner of the toys and this is their way of smacking them down for not paying off the mob.
Now, now, this action by BATFE is perfectly consistent with the precedent they set in the Olafson case. A machine gun is anything they say is a machine gun. So apparently that goes for airsoft toys as well as malfunctioning real guns. Next thing you know they'll get really ambitious and call a shoestring and a stick a machine gun. Oh, wait, too late. Crafty guys are way ahead of me yet again.
I going to agree w/Carl B. - I think some idiot snitch phoned in a tip that someone was importing 'machine guns' and the BATFU jumped on it. You'd have to be stupider than dumb to raid a toy store for plastic guns. Oh wait. I just described the BATFU.
With minimal work I could be convert a volvo to a machine gun. I won't bother to tell what I can make out of a GM or larger transport.
Author P.A.Luty had a design that was made out of British Standard Plumbing.
Just more ATFyou stupidity.
I've been dealing with them on related issues, though involving REAL FIREARMS, and they don't seem to know who Olofson is or anything about "AirSofts in Oregon". Go figure... Not like they are breaking any new ground here.
Don't forget Lewis (not of the Fine LMG, though possibly distantly related, by birth) and his take on the meaning of words:
'Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on. 'I do,' Alice hastily replied; 'at least, — at least I mean what I say — that's the same thing, you know.' 'Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. 'Why, you might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see!"'
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
The thing here to remember is; it ain't about guns, it's about property. At this stage of the game the BATFE is simply saying, "you have property we want, we can take it."
What that property is, is immaterial. It is all becoming subject to seizure regardless of the law. Have a happy day!
They can evidently now do, whatever they want, whenever they want, to whomever they want. Which means by way of translated intent my friends, that they and their masters, consider your Constitution and bill of rights, dead. Null and void, from now on.
When one of your family members or friends lies in a hospital or morgue or become residents of a federal correctional facility in the future, no one will be able to say they didn't see this coming. At some point choices have to be made. Courses have to be charted and there is a storm ahead.
having experienced home invasion by these criminals, it surprises me not in the least. The office in Portland is populated by what we term "Birkenstock" agents. One of the former portland agents now runs the Spokane office, they have raided the Spokane gun show and run legitmate people out of the gunshow, terrorized others to the point where they will never go back. The absolute ignorance of many of the younger "agents" is absolutely stunning. They literally know nothing about guns, except how to "identify" SKS, AK, and AR rifles. I can only presume that this was the level of expertise evident in this case.
It's all about the socialist agenda. Maintain that fear of guns and the people who own them in the minds and hearts of the ignorant and uninformed populace.
The BATF are certainly raising public awareness but I don't think it's what they had in mind. It's getting harder all the time to deny that this is an out of control criminal organization that answers to no one. They are engaging in open warefare against the citizens of the United States and must be stopped. As a poster on another forum is fond of saying: "it only continues because we allow it to continue".
er...that should be "warfare...not warefare". Damn fingers.
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives should be a convenience store and not a Gov't. agency.
Some time ago a study revealed that a large percentage of documents "classified" by the federal government were of no value any enemy of the USA, had no bearing on national security, but were in fact "classified" because the government found their contents embarassing.
I suspect we're seeing something similar here. BATFE is not talking because they know they stepped in "it" neck deep.
The definition of a "Machine gun" does not require the Airsoft item in question to be a firearm in the normal sense of the word.
The definition merely requires that literally any item the BATFU has declared to be a "weapon" be capable of "shooting" more than
one shot by a single function of the trigger. Granted, it is quite a stretch of the imagination to determine that a BB gun designed to shoot 6 mm plastic pellets could be considered a weapon in (again) the "normal" sense of the word, however we all know that has never kept the feds out of our personal business. We all know that BATFU and the federal prosecutors have in the past been known to paint a goose yellow and convince a judge it's a duck by manipulating their own definitions to fit.
This could conceivably be another circumstance where "reasonable restrictions" might be used to "due process" another law-abiding citizen directly into a federal jail cell.
[W-III]
well stated W W Woodward
maybe the BATFE should look into Toyota's going full auto
4 year college degree. Then 9 weeks in Glynco, GA where new agents are trained in surveillance, arrest techniques, firearms training and other skills. New agents then spend 13 weeks at FLETC where they are trained on explosives, bomb scene investigation and other similar areas. Note: no time spent in a machine shop
The vendor is out $50k and shouldn't have to spend monies and enrich an attorney. The smug idiot saying the toys can easily be transformed into machine guns deserves at the very least to be hanged by his ankles for a couple hours. Let a good deep pain overwhelm his senses and instill humility.
David,
You neglect to recognize the fact that toy crime is rising. Toy liquor stores are being robbed at an increasing rate. How many toy drive by shootings could have been prevented by this seizure? We will never know.
Consider what good the BATF is doing. If they can prevent just one toy suicide, it will be worth the effort. How much toy blood has been spilled by allowing these toys to reach the streets?
I call upon all Americans support the BATF in this campaign and to show proper respect for them and everything their toy badges stand for.
For years the ATF and the courts have been prosecuting people not for what they do, but what they 'could' do. In other words, no facts....just imaginary possibilities. No surprise to me that they now confiscate toys claiming what they 'could' be converted into. But what more should we really expect from an agency that answers to no one.
The US Congress is engaging in open warfare against the American people. Along with the courts/judges. In other words, all three branches of the federal government and most state and local governments. It's time to put them back in their proper place - even if it turns out to be a grave.
To yaba: Yea, but only because we continue to let them do so without their suffering any consequence.
How much longer are all us heros going to keep letting them?
"How much longer are all us heros going to keep letting them?"
Darn good question.... but not a new one. I'll let "some old dead white guy" provide a better answer than I could ever come up with.
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." -- Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence
Notice the part about duty?
"Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather. -- Japanese proverb
So.... Are we there yet?
It is simply amazing that there are people out there this stupid. But to top that off, they are government agents. That apparently have the Napolean complex. How could any sane person literally believe that a piece of plastic that fires plastic pellets, boldly displayed in the open none-the-less, can come up with this stuff? As said earlier, it is about control. It'd be a safe bet that the BATFE-UN's days are numbered. Whether by process of legislation or citizen force.
You guys are really some of the most uneducated or uninformed on firearms laws I have seen. BATF is far less aggressive than 20 years ago and firearms laws have been weakened significantly over the past 20 years, especially regarding dealers. If you want no gun laws call your congressman. I am sure they will help you out. With Obama in there you should be thankful things aren't much worse.
That must be why VPC was crowing about a 78% drop in licensed gun dealers between 1996 and 2006, which they attributed to "a direct result of Clinton-era policies that included raising the fee for a Type 1 license from $30 to $200 coupled with concentrated 'enforcement' (read 'auditing') of
provisions of the '68 Gun Control Act," Grouse Man. Go tell it to Red's Trading Post or Fincher or Olofson or Kwan or Friesen or the Martins on this latest with toy guns, or I could go on and on... Then tell it to Cleanupatf.org.
Then explain why "From FY1999 to FY2008, Congress increased ATF appropriations from $541.6 million to nearly
$1.012 billion, an increase of 87%."
Yeah, come here and tell us how uneducated and uninformed WE are.
David, one of the oddities of the mind of the uninformed is that they somehow come to the conclusion that anything someone else says of which they were previously unaware can't possibly be true and therefore the person imparting the knowledge is the one who is ignorant and uneducated. This reversal of status in the minds of these poor souls is the only solace they get (self-administered, though it is) for being uninformed and uneducated when they find themselves in a discussion and they are in way over their heads. Grouse man is merely protecting his self-image. It's actually easier than learning the material.
"grouse man says:
You guys are really some of the most uneducated or uninformed on firearms laws I have seen. BATF is far less aggressive than 20 years ago and firearms laws have been weakened significantly over the past 20 years, especially regarding dealers. If you want no gun laws call your congressman. I am sure they will help you out. With Obama in there you should be thankful things aren't much worse."Well, as a matter of fact I turned 21 the year the Batt-Fays were granted the virtually unlimited license to hurt people who've committed no crime, 1968. So I've seen it all over the ensuing 42 years and can tell you the Batt-Fays have never been worse than they are today.
It's about time we started taking much more aggressive action against them AND their families. Justice can be such a bitch.
grouse man, before you start attacking the education and knowledge level of the folks who participate in this forum it would do you well to engage in some meaningful research on your own part. Many of us have been following the misadventures of the BATFU for several years and know whereof we speak. I would suggest that in the future you get your ducks lined up before you launch a scattergun attack that will result in embarrassing no one but yourself.
[W-III]
I airsoft, I have these guns, they are most likely metal! The fact is that they CAN be converted, but would explode if fired, and would never ever work to injure someone despite the user!
Airsofter: you may know airsoft guns, but you do not know real firearms. The parts of a real AR-15 will not fit on the airsoft lower: the parts are of different widths. Not much, but enough to make a difference. Also, the trigger group is incompatible. Not withstanding the fact that the round wouldn't chamber and the metal used in an airsoft would never stand up to the pressures involved in an actual firing. There is NO WAY the guns in question could ever have been converted into real firearms.
Airsoft as a game is safe, many people can't relise that, they see guns and freak thinking all are dangerous. The ATF has no rights to keep us from their testing. The guns are fake and impossible to turn into a rifle capable of shooting a lead projectile. The entire airsoft community is watching waiting to see if they will finally give in and let the media take it over making them into clowns. toy gun crimes, so what, our world is going insaine as is. the problem is stupid all together.
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