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Those darn dog rescues with all of their rules and questions - what gives?

Exceptional dog for adoption: NIkita Northwest German Shepherd Rescue
Exceptional dog for adoption: NIkita Northwest German Shepherd Rescue
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  • lani m vaughn 6 years ago


  • Marianne 6 years ago

    Thank you for clarifying this to potential's important that the dogs get their forever home, not just another stop along the way. If someone really wants a dog, and has really thought about this as a lifetime commitment, the application and screening are but a small part of finding the perfect fit for your family !

  • Julie S. 6 years ago

    Very True Info Penny! I was asked all of these questions before I got my dog out of Penny's home (she was his foster Mom). He has proven to be a challenge but as I had previously rescued a GSD, I was not completely surprised. My last one was too, but very worth it in the long run.
    I am happy to say that even though we still have work to do with the trainers I use....he has improved tremendously in the year we have had him, and we love him.
    A rescue group can only predict so much and all of the questions are there to help reduce the return of the animal to rescue or placement in the wrong home.
    Rescue family of Big Red, formerly known as Gunnar.

  • Penny Examiner 6 years ago

    Julie is one of the phenomenal adopters that I was referring to. Dedicated and committed - even when her dog has been difficult (thank you Julie!!).

  • Ellen Weinstock 6 years ago

    Excellent article. I shared it to my FB page, as I think a lot of other rescue & shelter folks I know would appreciate it. As A Rotta Love Plus (a rottweiler & pit bull rescue here in MN) puts it: "We're not looking for a dog's next home. We're looking for their last home."

  • Becky 6 years ago

    As one of those folks who ask the intrusive questions and make the all important home inspections, I truly appreciate your article! Great job!!!!!!!

  • Michelle 6 years ago

    As an adoption coordinator for the Boston Terrier Rescue of East TN, I can't tell you how thrilled I was to read this! So many people misunderstand our intentions when asking people to submit lengthy applications. I try to tell every potential adopter one thing: we don't expect you to be a perfect person with a perfect house and perfect situation. We expect you to be a responsible pet owner and be able to provide a safe and loving home for a pet. That is what we're looking for in potential adopters. :)

  • Eileen 6 years ago

    I guess I do have to make a comment about the down side of such intensive screening measures. I strongly encouraged some family members to adopt a dog recently. They willingly filled out the numerous detailed applications for different organizations and followed all of the steps required. However, they were never contacted back in almost every single case. The lack of communication and feedback was quite disappointing for them. In the end they decided to purchase a puppy from a reputable breeder.

    I was truly saddened by this outcome. But, honestly, I cannot argue with their decision. They didn't feel as strongly as I do about adoption and the process was much too cumbersome for them. They simply wanted a dog to care for. And yes, as a volunteer for a horse rescue organization, I can tell you that they would have been a perfect adoptive home for a smaller sized dog.

  • Regi 5 years ago

    It might have been better if they'd applied to one or two rescues and really had a specific dog in mind. With the applications that come in to a rescue, it might have seemed suspicious if they'd applied to 5 or 6 places - like they wanted a dog, any dog. Rescues look for adopters particularly interested in a specific dog or specific breed

  • Tina 6 years ago

    Being a part of English and French Bulldog rescue in Seattle (, it is also important that you find the right home for the right breed of dog. Want to go running and hiking with your dog? Then an English Bulldog isn't for you. Don't want a clingy dog? Frenchies won't be your bag. They all may be cute but unless you know what you're getting in to and are a good match, it isn't going to work out.

    Great article!!!!

  • Kelly 6 years ago

    As a volunteer with Boston Terrier Rescue Canada I just wanted to say thanks for a great article! I have shared to our FB group pages and am sure may rescuers will be doing the same.

  • Teresa Osborn 6 years ago

    Outstanding article, Penny. I think we all need to post this on our websites!!!
    Teresa Osborn
    Lone Star Shih Tzu & Lhasa Apso Rescue

  • Lorrie 6 years ago

    As a fellow dog rescuer, I have to say this is such a wonderful article and I believe I have said the very same words at least 100 times. Thank you so much for making the public aware of the importance of the adoption process.

  • Renee4Rescue 6 years ago

    Thank you so much for this great article! Hopefully it will help people better understand not just what we do, but why we're so "picky" about who we adopt to!

  • Deb Alverson 6 years ago

    While I am a big proponent of adoption, I find the rescues that immediately rule out anyone that doesn't own a home or live in a house with a yard to be very unfair to potential excellent owners. I understand (having spent a good amount of time on both sides of the equation) that stability and a good match are what we look for in a home. I would ask that any of the rescues on here make sure to give everyone a fair chance and don't rule someone out because they are not what YOU would consider the perfect home.

    Both of my current dogs are adoptions, though not through private rescues. I found them way too restrictive, invasive and more interested in their own ideal than whether the home was a good fit for the dog. For my next dog, I'll either purchase from a responsible, respected breeder or go to my local public shelter.

  • FLRescuer 5 years ago

    Deb - You are correct that hard rules about home ownership and yards can be unfair. Most groups will ask those questions though and should only be evaluating that against the particular dog up for adoption. I've fostered plenty of dogs that would thrive in an apartment or condo with walks for exercise and "business". I've also fostered plenty that absolutely needed a single family home with a safe yard to run in. For me, it always came down to what was best for a particular dog. One scenario that comes to mind - a single mom with a toddler and another baby on the way living in an apt wanted to adopt a very, very high energy dog with a propensity to bark and a need to run. Her application for that dog was denied because he needed an owner that would either take him running frequently or had a yard for him to run in plus the fact that a known barker in an apt is never a good idea. She was, however, approved for a dog that didn't need as much exercise and didnt' bark very much and would fit her life better. Hope that helps some. :-)

  • Oak Hill Animal Rescue - TX 6 years ago

    We certainly understand the complaints about our "invasive" practices. But first, walk a mile in our shoes. When you spend what we spend in time, money and the emotional investment of saving even one dog or one cat, it's our RIGHT to be picky about where they land. If that's too much info for you to's your hat.....what's your hurry?

  • Irena 6 years ago

    From a twenty year rescue veteren - thank you! Another point, not all dogs are right for every home. When I screen I'm looking for a good match. I don't just have the happiness of the dog in mind. I want the family to gain a real friend and partner.

  • Janelle 6 years ago

    To the person asking this question. Try working at a rescue and see first hand what they are dealing with when it comes to irresponsible "owners". People bring in their dogs as they are basically tossing them aside. Rescues want to make sure that the last home a dog goes into IS indeed their last. A forever home with love and kindness. They want to make sure it is the right fit. Rescues also work with the dogs to help them over come their fears and so they will be adoptable. Rescues are a lifesaver for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of animals. Some people adopt dogs and then turn around and take them back as they are too big or they don't fit their decor. Yes, that is correct. So, think smart and when you want to adopt make sure it is for the dogs lifetime and do the right thing. Be honest when filling out all of the paper work. An animals life is at stake.

  • Toni Musulin 6 years ago

    I have only two words for people who think "It's only a dog, why so many questions?" - KIMBERLY NIZATO!!!!! If anyone doesn't know about her or how she starved her chained dog almost to death - GOOGLE HER!

  • Csilla 6 years ago

    THANK YOU! As a volunteer for a rescue for several years, I couldn't have said it better.
    Westside German Shepherd Rescue of Los Angeles

  • kym 5 years ago

    I too understand the long and lengthy process of adoption, and being involved with fostering and rescuing myself, see both sides of the coin. I do believe that screening is a nessesary part of the process.It definatly is an important part of finding the right home, however, I have also dealt with rescues not returning phone calls or requiring the home to be OVERLY perfect. I personally know of an older couple who take the BEST care of thier pets be turned down for a kitten due to thier age. The rescue was more than happy to let them adopt an older cat because "what if you died?" the rescuer asked....Well, we could all die tomorrow regardless of how old we are. I feel this was a very unfair desision on the rescues part. Yes,we need to continue to ask questions to give these animals the best home we possibly can but we also need to pick our battles.PS I do understand that most rescues are run by volenteers however, when a potential adoptor is calling, returning calls should be a priority

  • Jack's Mom 5 years ago

    OMG! Someone who gets it and who hit it right on the head - with one exception. I've had people complain about spending $200+ for "just a mixed breed". It needs to be brought out about the shots, dhlpp, rabies, bordatella, the spay or neuter, $100 and up, heartworm test, fecal, sometimes a blood test or a dental or a lump that has to be removed. Bad knees that need operated on, maybe a health certificate ($25 here). Add to this the animal is usually housetrained and the rescue can usually tell the prospective owner of any little glitches.and you are being offered the bargain of the century.

  • Laura 5 years ago

    Good article and I have always adopted from shelters. I totally understand why rescues are so careful, but some high kill shelters, I think are a little too picky. If an animal is going to be pts, wouldn't it be better to give it a chance? Maybe even lower the fee a little, rather than kill them? Unless there is really some reason the shelter thinks an adopter would not be good to the animal, why not? No disrespect intended, just wondered..

  • Cat Mom 5 years ago

    As one of those who requires adopters to fill out the lengthy applications (4 pages in our case), I thank you for this wonderful article. We never feel badly for having folks go through a rigorous process in order to adopt. The animals are worth the time and effort to save and they are worth the time and effort it takes to find just the right match the second time around, so that it lasts forever.

  • lisa o 5 years ago

    I can tell you that as a kittenmom (I foster the bottle babies and the orphaned ones), I work very hard on my fosters - up all night with critical cases, bottle feeding every 2 hours, wiping multiple tiny bottoms and I worry about every single one while they are with me. The adopter is getting a very special pet for a bargian price. I already did all the hard work, all they have to do now is love them. I try make sure that these babies never have to experience the horror of being unwanted again.

  • Joe J 5 years ago


  • Profile picture of Amy Rossi
    Amy Rossi 5 years ago

    I'm very happy that these applications are comprehensive! As you said, "weeding out" the bad owners ahead of time will prevent that dog from ending up in an unhealthy or negligent situation. Thanks for sharing this advice! And good owners won't mind the long application because they'll understand it's for a good cause :)

  • Anonymous 5 years ago

    I think lengthy/strict adoption processes along with excessive adoptions fees encourage more people to turn to BYB. Just because someone doesn't look good "on paper" doesn't mean they are a bad home. I think there are essentially two types of people: those who will adjust their lifestyle to accomodate their pets, and those that will give up a pet that does not fit their lifestyle. And I don't think that there is necessarily any real procedure for determining what type of person you are dealing with. I am a foster for two rescues, have worked in a county kill shelter, and dedicate every moment to DOGS. But, guess what? I don't believe in yearly vacciantions. I don't believe in feeding kibble. I do have 9 dogs. They are all well fed, healthy, exercised, trained, very well loved, and HAPPY. We should be looking for reasons to APPROVE rather than DENY adopters...and also EDUCATE them about the specific requirments of each dog. The statistics are sad, and forever homes are indeed a very rare thing...the application process is no guarantee that the dog will find it's last home, unfortunately.

  • Profile picture of mjtytrin
    mjtytrin 4 years ago

    I agree and disagree. I do think that some people will be turned off by the application process of CERTAIN rescues. However, you can't just throw your adoption standards out the window to suit those adopters. You have to look at the bigger picture. Also, you have to realize as the adopter that you should be open to "shopping around" for both the right dog and the right rescue. I founded and ran a dog rescue for 3+ years. Our adoption application was constantly changing as we learned what questions needed to be added and which could be deleted. Personally, if I had an adopter that fed a raw diet and avoided yearly (or even all adult vaccines like I do), I would be THRILLED! I sat down with every single one of the 360+ adopters we had and talked to them about the dangers of overvaccinating and how to pick the right kibble (although raw diets are even better!). If you go into a lot of detail on an adoption application to explain the things that make you a great adopter, almost any rescue will approve you.

  • scrapheapchallenge 5 years ago

    Great article! I volunteer the Dogs Trust, (on whose facebook wall I found this link) and German Shepherd Dog Rescue UK, both of whom have no-kill policies. I do transport, emergency fostering, and homechecks. The paperwork is lengthy and as you've pointed out, for good reason, I check veterinary references, and talk to the adopters and their family, inspecting their house & garden, quizzing them on if they own or rent, do they have permission for a dog in the house if they rent, where the dog will sleep, where he will stay if they pop out, how long & where they work, how old their children are, if there are visiting children, what will happen to the dog when they go on holiday, how would they introduce the dog to their house, to their current pets, how they would tackle training and common behavioural issues (dominance, resource guarding etc), and much more.

    Fortunately responsible dog owners realise that this is to protect them and their family as well as the dog. The last thing we want is dogs "bouncing" back to rescue again as not only is it stressful for the family and the dog, but it places extra strain on the rescue. My utmost respect however goes to those who are responsible enough NOT to get a dog, who may have had dogs before, and understand that their current situation isn't perfect and wouldn't fulfil a dog's needs adequately. Loving dogs but having the intelligence to know that you shouldn't have one is an admirable level of maturity and self control.

  • Anonymous 5 years ago

    As a loving and devoted dog and cat owner, I have personally taken dogs out of horrible situations and gave them a forever home. My 11 yr old great dane sleeps n my bed and is part of my family. I want to adopt another dog because I will have to put my dog to sleep soon because of his health problems. I am a large bredd lover because of there gentle and laid back attitudes but I have an autstic son, rent and do not have a fenced in yard. I have been turned down to adopt because of that. My son loves to snuggle and help take care of our dog. I also need a larger dog that can handle my son disability because he tends to play a little rough. I have had to dogs and 1 cat in my adult cat is 16, my 1st dog was 16 when I put him down (he was on deaths door when I found him...infections, hook worms, heartworms and 50 lbs underweigt) and my Dane was starved and run over by a car. I know that I am an excellent Mommy and spoil my animals. So why am I not approved? Can anyone please tell me what I am doing wrong?

  • Louis 5 years ago

    I call bullshi+ on this.
    So-called "rescue" groups are just a front for misanthropic animal hoarders. Stop jerking people around, and telling us we've been "approved", and then immediately afterwards saying you have nothing available for us.

  • Angie 5 years ago

    I went through all of this when I adopted my dog from a rescue and never batted an eye and I didn't know anything of what I know now. It was their policy, I wanted the dog, end of story. I get that not everyone understands or approves in which case, well..don't know what to tell ya. If you can't understand or see where we are coming from then you don't understand either, why we have to do the things we do. Every rescue has had dogs returned at one point or another after the owner realizes their house or yard is not up to par for the dog, something we could have determined w/ the home inspect. We schedule them with you for times and days that work for you and there is nothing intrusive about it. We are invited. I won't argue w/ anyone about this, we do what we do for a plethora of reasons that years of experience has deemed necessary. Don't punish the good rescues for what the not so good ones do. They are not all the same and FYI-I am FAR from a hoarder as is any foster in the rescue I volunteer for. When we reach our limits, we stop taking in dogs until adoptions occur but that isn't always easy when you have people dump a kennel full of puppies on your doorstep. And that does happen, a lot. Argue it til you're blue in the face, we won't stop doing the things we do for the safety of our dogs simply because you have issue w/ it.

  • Profile picture of BarryMC
    BarryMC 5 years ago

    I agree with Louis. Bullshi+ is right. I don't mind the questions, I don't mind someone calling my vet, I don't mind the fees. Where I draw the line is with these in-home inspections. Who do you people think you are?! That is just too intrusive. Some groups want to do unannouced inspections. That is waaay over the line. My Border Collie lived with me for the last 11 years of her life, no one ever had to come and pass judgement on my home. No one had to keeps tabs on me. Yet she was fed, watered, groomed and exercised. She even went on vacations with me. I'm not ashamed to say I cried like a baby when she became ill and I had to have her pts. I am 49 years old and for the first time since I was 15, there is no dog in my life. Well, I thought I would adopt a little Sheltie but no, seems I'm a bad risk because I don't want some stranger snooping around my house. In-home inspection! Are you kidding me?! Do these people think I have Bear traps scattered around my living room! I think it's some kind of a power trip for you people. Too many unwanted dogs in the county animal shelters to be kissing someone's a@@.

  • sara 5 years ago

    "And a final note - a bad owner is not better than getting a dog "out" of rescue."
    --I had to read this sentence several times before I got it. I guess I'd revise it to:
    And a final note - a bad owner is not better than making a dog stay with a rescue, without a permanent home yet. (Not totally satisfied with that revision, but youknowwhutimean.)

    I have to add that there are too many cases where a bad owner is not better than euthanization. But we know that.

    Fantastic article. I have heard people say the very things that make this piece necessary.

  • Anonymous 5 years ago

    From the rescue's perspective on home visits what about the adopter that lies about if they have a fence. I'm a foster mom and I had that happen. The people said they had a 4 ft fence. Yeah they did on 3 sides with nothing on the 4th. That's one of the reasons why we want to see if for ourselves. I searched for the dog for 2 months and never did find him (while working full time and living 45 minutes away). And the adopters did nothing and said it was my fault I didn't tell them he'd run off.

  • Profile picture of BarryMC
    BarryMC 5 years ago

    I was asked if I had a fence and I answered no. You think I lied about that? I was asked if I owned or rented my house. I rent. Maybe that was a lie? I was asked if I could get the landlord written consent to get a dog. My answer - I already have written consent and could fax a copy any time. Maybe that was a lie. Maybe I don't really have a fax machine. So tell me, what do you think I lied about?

  • Anonymous 5 years ago

    Barry, I think you're being a tad ridiculous, and your attitude and unwillingness to cooperate is what makes you a giant red flag. I'm the Western Ontario Director for a large rescue. We don't regard it as a "home inspection" it is a "home visit."
    Basically we come for a short visit, discuss what they might need to prepare for with the specific dog they are adopting, any concerns they might have, and any issues that may arise. We don't "search their home" we don't inspect closets, bedrooms, basements, cupboards. We have a nice sit down in the living room, discuss the dog, and they show us the yard. The predominant reason is you do live where you say you live, that the home isn't unfit for a living creature (we've had home visits where animals have appeared out of nowhere, and the potential adopters pretended to not know where they came from. We've had home visits where there were 7 extra kids in the house not accounted for, filthy I might add, where they had to move mountains of garbage just for us to fit in the front door). I've also had my home visit in order to become a foster Mom, I was frantically cleaning my house, hoping the dogs were on their best behavior, paranoid that anything was out of place. It was a completely relaxing experience, and some of the adopters and new fosters we've done home visits for have become some of my closest friends. We all share a love of dogs, and a hope to get them in a wonderful forever home. If you can't respect that, well I don't know

  • Emily 4 years ago

    Please read this article to see another point of view. I believe these exclusionary policies do more harm, and cause more animals to die, because every time we deny an adopter, we leave an animal in our shelter longer, we keep an animal in a cage that could be open for another one coming in. As long as animals are dying every day, who are we to judge a home? Why are they a "bad" pet owner because they don't have a fence? I once heard a woman say it was "dog abuse" if the person didn't let the dog sleep in bed with them. That's just ridiculous. We all take care of our pets differently--it doesn't mean we love them more or less than anyone else. Fenced yards, work schedules, come on! If that dog in your shelter had to choose between a "B+" home and being dead, what would he choose? Bring me those B+ homes all day long, and I'll show you a no-kill community.

  • Jen 4 years ago

    We recently adopted from the Rocky Mountain English Springer Rescue. I was shocked at the extent of the interview process. They called our vet and knew about every illness & injury our previous dog ever had. Thankfully we were approved and were matched with a perfect companion for our family. The interview process not only helps find the right dog for the right family, but it measures commitment as well.

  • dani 4 years ago

    i wish this was the headline in the national news! thanks so much for putting it out there.

  • WinterPaws Arctic Breed Rescue 4 years ago

    Thank you for your timely article! On occasion, we are told that it's easier to adopt a child from a foreign country than it is to adopt one of our dogs and to those people we say, "thank you!" People often don't understand our rigid screening process and I hope to share this article to help enlighten those who think they should just be able to walk up to a dog and take it off the shelf just like food at a grocery store.

  • Wendy 4 years ago

    I have no problem with the application process or 1 home visit, more than 1 home visit I would not find acceptable. At a Mastiff rescue in California they ask you to bring your other dogs to the rescue to meet the adoptable, That I found unacceptable, as it was a 4 hour drive. I'm sorry but the health and mental well being of my dogs is just as important as your rescues. I will not drag my dogs all over Cali in a car, to go into a strange place full of strange smells and hundreds of other dogs. They would feel anxiety, be tired and probably afraid, I will not put my babies through that. I have control of my dogs, can that rescue gaurantee me that it has complete control of all their rescues? I doubt it, sorry that is just going to far in my book. Then I'm supposed to adopt this new addition to my family and put him/her in the car with my other 2 stressed out dogs for a long drive home?!?!? I take my dogs to public places and on vacations, but that is not another dogs teritory they are entering, the dogs at a rescue view the place as theirs right? So they could be agressive towards my dogs.

  • Anonymous 4 years ago

    I had a Horible experience with a local SPCA last year while looking to adopt a dog. I have two cats and wanted to add a dog. I found one unexpectedly and wanted to know if she was good with cats. well, i had to fill out an application right away. they found out that I was late with my cats shots due to my divorce and fight over getting custody over my house. They would not let me adopt the dog until I got the cats updated. So i made the appointment. Then I tried to go out just to see the dog i wanted. They would not even let me meet the her until the cats had been updated. I was in shock, heartbroken and angry when i turned and walked out of the shelter. I was made to feel like a bad pet owner. I've had ferrets, dogs and cats and other critters all my life and even educated my vets on ferret care and i never felt the way the SPCA made me feel about being late on my cats' shots. I ended up going to another shelter out of my state to find the best dog that i ever had. i even put 12 grande that i don't have into the dog to get her ruptured discs fixed and am now rehabbing her in the hopes that she'll walk again. I didn't even have her a year and spent that kind of money on her. I would have given that other dog a great home if the local SPCA had let me adopt her (if she'd been good with cats). I will never support my local SPCA because of the bad experiences I had with them.

  • dobie houson 4 years ago

    Penny, I take issue with some of your points as someone who has worked in rescue for more than three years. ANY home is not better than no home. With animal abuse still a huge issue in ur world, rescue agencies do their best to make sure no animal companion in their care will ever suffer abuse (especially since so many come from abusive backgrounds. Second I hate the term owner and pet but rather animal companioin and human caregiver or partner. We HAVE to stop thinking about animals as property and start thinking about them as a priviledge. Do some agencies go to far...maybe ...but most are just trying to be diligent and ensure the safe and sound future of the animals in our charge.

  • Profile picture of Girlytrude
    Girlytrude 4 years ago

    As one of those people who screens the applications and carries out the telephone interviews for The Little Dog Rescue, a rescue helping small breeds in the UK, I want to thank you for this article. The questions are essential in matching the right dog with the right home to ensure a lifelong commitment. XX

  • wonder dog rescue 4 years ago

    thanks for the insightful article. We do ask a lot of questions... for the right reasons. I want to be certain that this is a good match... that the dog won't be put into a yard because the people are unwilling or unable to do the training that might be needed (housetraining, resource guarding, barking, etc). We take time to evaluate each dog. We can't begin to place a dog until we know who he or she IS.... Sadly, many people want a dog for the wrong reasons, or easily see the animal as disposable as a piece of furniture..... I cannot speak for all rescues, and I"m sure that some go overboard.... Nineteen years in rescue has shown and taught me a lot though.
    linda & wonder dog rescue. s.f. ca

  • susa taylor 4 years ago

    this is the reason all these questions are asked BECAUSE we want the animal to find a home where it is safe and loved and NOT return it to a cycle of abuse and neglect, would'nt you be concerned if it was your dog that you could no longer care for due to illness or god forbid death.I would want only the best place possible for my dogs if I knew I was dying and would go to the ends of the earth to make sure they were loved and cared for when I was no longer around, so let the rescues ask as many questions as they want if you are genuine and really can care for and love want a pet it will be no problem and you will embrace the fact that these rescues are so concerned about their pets welfare.

  • Janene 4 years ago

    I agree but i must say it is very hard to adopt! not only because of the process and lack of cominucation but the choice of which type of dog and if they have the specific type you want. We want a german shepherd it has been hard to find a young/baby shepherd. i have 3 young children who are very excited to be getting a puppy and we have been thinking about getting a puppy for about a year, long time, i know, but its a huge commitment. We have all agreed to adopt and share the responsibility but i have now been calling for the last week and a bit to shelters and filled out applications and not one call back, no response, nothing! Its very discouraging. I dont particularly want to go to a pet store and to be honest i dont want to pay $1000-$2000 for a pup from a breeder. which is ridiculous. I think some of this adopton process is a tad over rated because there are 3 german shepherd puppies we are intrested in and one of those pups could be in a warm, loving home with us right now! if theyd call us back, its fustrating and upsetting not only for me but my children too. Its also sad to see any animal in an abusive home or a shelter but i could just imagin how many people like us who are willing an able to care for an animal who is homeless but dont get a response from these shelters. Brutal!


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