In case you missed part 1 and part 2 with Josh Fredrickson, have at ‘em. I hope y’all are as sick of him and his wife as I am.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. In 2008 did you attend Spiritual Warrior?”
“Josh: No I did not.”
“Det. Diskin: That just saved us a lot of time.”
“Josh: I was in '04 as a participant and as a JR team member '05, '06 and '09”
“Det. Poling: How come not '07 and '08? That's all I want to know.”
“Josh: In '05 there was just, Megan and I were the only ones that knew how to run the event and so we were the only team members there and then in '07 and '08 they had Dream Team members and other team members. Typically I don't go to a lot of the events that actually run or help out with the coordination in my position so by that time they had volunteers that could go and other team members and then this year we had a new Event Coordinator and so I went to help out because I had been before as a JRI team member.”
“Det. Diskin: Okay. The incident with Coleen Conaway in San Diego in 2009, were you attending that event?”
“Josh: No I was in Minneapolis for my cousin's wedding so I wasn't there that weekend.”
I wonder if he can actually prove that he wasn’t there for those events.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. The Vision Quest. It's, from the first time you went to Spiritual Warrior it had changed. The Vision Quest used to be after the sweat lodge and now it's before the sweat lodge. Are participants told not to take water with them on the Vision Quest?”
“Josh: Yeah they’re told not to take water or food with them on the Vision Quest and then the morning they get back from the Vision Quest their told, we actually hand out little pieces of paper to them on the Vision Quest cause their supposed to be in silence but it says on there to eat breakfast, eat a good breakfast and to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. It says hydrate heavily I believe is the actual word it says on it and then throughout the day we remind people to hydrate.”
The participants spent most of the week “in silence” and I think we all know that an hour, even two, is not enough time to recover from a fast. Another point worth mentioning is that participants had limited use of the bathroom, so hydrating heavily had horribly unpleasant consequences. Kirby Brown tried to comply and drink lots of liquids and she ended up doubled over and crying in pain from not being allowed to relieve herself. This is not only a sick and messed up scenario, but it didn’t even keep her alive in the Death Lodge.
“Det. Diskin: Is that enough time, if someone is dehydrated from fasting; is that enough time, a few hours before the sweat lodge to rehydrate?”
“Josh: Medically I don't know. I know from like going to my chiropractor and that kind of thing that your cells tend to rehydrate pretty quickly just from what she's told me in the past but not anything officially or documented or I wouldn't know.”
Josh is probably going to need a new chiropractor now. I mean, I’m sure mentioning a musculoskeletal specialist with a focus on the spine seemed like a good idea to him, but obviously that is a pretty bad choice when seeking information about heatstroke and dehydration. Blaming the gal who adjusts your spine is pretty low, but at least it’s slightly better than blaming the victims.
“Det. Diskin: Initially participants took water with them on the Vision Quest. Is that correct?”
“Josh: Uhm in 2004 as a participant, so this was before I worked for James, we took, it was a three day Vision Quest so instead of just the (Inaudible) it was 3 nights out there. We were still instructed we could bring a water bottle if the thought we needed it as backup but not to drink and so I remember that year you know it was probably about 50/50, there were only 11 there I think. But it was about 50/50 the amount of people who drank water on the Vision Quest and the amount of people that didn't that year. So you could have your water bottle there but the idea was to not drink it if you could.”
Did Josh just say that in 2004 there were only 11 participants? Because that is a pretty huge difference from the 60 or so participants James Ray crammed into the lodge in 2009. Also, being allowed to have one water bottle for 3 days is still criminal. For explanatory purposes, let’s guess they were given a decently sized bottle. A large bottle usually holds about a quart of water, which is about a liter for everyone using the metric system. In desert temperatures people should drink at least four quarts/liters of water per day, which is a gallon of water a day. For a three day vision quest, participants should have been provided with at least three gallons of water each.
Josh’s explanation also supports that James Ray has an abuse pattern that escalated over time.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Then that changed too, is it just because it was a shorter Vision Quest?”
“Josh: I think it was a shorter Vision Quest and I think you know the temptation to drink it just because it's there is there. You know and you know we don't check their bags and things so they could bring water if they want it to, it's just”
“Det. Diskin: They're told not to”
“Josh: Yeah, their told not to”
The excuse “but they could have snuck food and water in their bags!” is stupid. Flat out stupid. The participant guide clearly says three meals a day are provided and the whole week is spent drilling messages of honesty and integrity into participants so that James Ray has an easier time taking advantage of them. James Ray didn’t really think all the way through drilling in that honesty and integrity thing either. He probably shouldn’t have tried to teach something he doesn’t understand, because if he had the slightest idea what either of those words means then he would have realized how badly that is going to bite him in the butt in the courtroom.
“Det. Diskin: Were you there when one of the women asked James Ray if she could take water with her because she takes medication and needs to use the water to take that medication?”
“Josh: Yeah, this year? Yeah, someone, I believe it was, she said high blood pressure medication and she, and I can't remember who it was specifically but the question was can I bring my medication with me. And can I bring water to take the medication with and you know James asked well do you need the medication, can you go without it? If you can, do that. If not, take care of yourself and then when it came to the question of her bringing water with, you know he said well can you swallow it with spit instead of bringing water with? And that I believe is just because water tends to be a temptation when it's there to drink it so uhm, but in the end he said you know you gotta do what you gotta do to take care of yourself.”
Josh hits the nail on the head when he points out that drinking water is a temptation when one is slowly dying of dehydration. He also neglects to offer any reason whatsoever as to the purpose of denying participants sweet, life-sustaining water.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Did, staff members, did they tell participants that they were going to experience an altered state in the sweat lodge?”
“Det. Diskin: Or James Ray?”
“Josh: James Ray did, or he said you could and I don't know about staff members saying anything”
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Was this in front of everybody when James Ray said, in front of the whole group?”
“Josh: Yeah like when he's setting it up and everything he says you could experience an altered state like experience”
“Det. Diskin: Okay. What's the cause of that altered state?”
“Josh: Uhm I think it's, for me it's, it's, it's pushing your body and, and doing something that you don't normally do on a day to day basis. You know for some people that's running, running that extra mile or for some people it's, for me it's definitely the sweat lodge because I don't like the heat at all so for me to be in there is really, it's, it's kind of like a mind over matter kind of thing where you're really, your body is saying no. You know like if you're in a really intense workout but you just do one more round or reps or whatever and you're able to, to make that happen.”
Of course, Josh wasn’t denied food or water, sat right next to the door, and was allowed to leave the Death Lodge. Why should he care about all those other people? As for altered states, is there anybody who hasn’t heard of desert mirages? There is no other stereotype so clearly associated with the desert as hallucinations when deprived of water.
And then there’s that whole mind over matter thing Josh mentions, I mean, talk about completely ignoring very real physical limitations. Is he really trying to say you can push past dehydration, heatstroke, multiple organ failure, etc simply with your mind? That is the type of saying that simply begs for a lynch mob to give him the chance to demonstrate, especially since Josh and other employees left the lodge early.
“Det. Diskin: Okay, did staff tell participants that it would be okay for them to pass out or that you might pass out and that's okay? Something like that?”
“Mr. Proctor: And I think when he says staff you're including James Ray, right.”
“Det. Diskin: Yes, yes”
“Mr. Proctor: I think James Ray did most of it”
“Josh: And that's I think why is (Inaudible) setup so I don't really recall the staff telling participants much of anything about it. In terms of its okay to pass out, I don't recall him saying anything like that.”
Reading these interviews with Josh and Megan is essentially like watching them stab their immunity over and over again in the face, huh?
“Det. Diskin: Do you remember him saying you might pass out?”
“Josh: Not that specifically. He may have said you might feel like you're passing out but I don't recall him saying, it could be my memory too but”
Perhaps Josh and his wife should get these memory problems checked out. They sound kind of serious.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Did he say what to do if you did pass out or you felt like you were gonna pass out?”
“Josh: No what he said was if it's too hot or if you need to you can leave but you know he never said if you feel like you're gonna pass out do this. He did say if it feels too hot try getting low to the ground because it's cooler on the ground, on, on the earth. But that was, I mean that's the extent of you know what to do.”
What Josh means is James Ray told participants if it was too hot or hard to breathe, etc, that they should stick their noses deep into the dirt because if they left the lodge early they would miss out on the experience.
“Det. Diskin: Was there a plan in place if something were to go wrong?”
“Josh: Uhm, I guess the plan in place was that we had team members outside who had been in the sweat lodge in prior years so they knew what it was like to be in the sweat lodge so they were outside supporting people as they came out. We also had [volunteer] who's a registered nurse. She was stationed outside the sweat lodge too to you know kind of take care of anything if anything happens. You know ultimately the plan is we never really had a plan for the extent of what happened. I, I, call the paramedics I think is the plan”
Well, Josh can’t very well say that the whole thing did go according to plan, right up until 911 was called.
“Det. Diskin: Did James Ray instruct his staff to call the paramedics if they noticed something going wrong?”
“Josh: Specifically no, no”
I think Josh means “Specifically no, he told them not to call.”
“Det. Poling: Was there a guide or information on when to call 911?”
“Josh: No there wasn't”
“Det. Poling: Did he appreciate you calling 911?”
“Josh: This year he, I mean he asked me has 911 been called as, you know, making sure they had and I had asked that same question and it had already been called by the time we knew that something was going on. So yeah I mean I, this year there was no question that he was appreciative that 911 was already called.”
What Josh means is “We had no idea anyone was calling 911 until it was too late to stop them.”
“Det. Diskin: Alright. Did James Ray or his staff tell participants or Dream Team members about prior problems in the sweat lodge?”
“Josh: Not other than like their personal experience, you know. Cause each of them had been through it before so it was really just remember your experience and I mean they all shared stories about what they were going through and what other people were going through in past years so nothing officially.”
Yeah, I bet "nothing officially" because that would get JRI in so very much trouble, but we already know they have no problem with secret meetings and conference calls.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Did you see people being dragged out during the sweat lodge?”
“Josh: Yeah, I helped people out of the sweat lodge. You know, who and when I don't, I wouldn't be able to give you those details.”
“Det. Diskin: At what point did you decide to take them out of the sweat lodge?”
“Josh: If I heard that someone needed help or someone said I need to get out of here, I, that's what I was paying attention for. So I would help, you know help physically get up and walk around and help move people out if they needed it cause I mean your body gets pretty physically weak in there.”
“Det. Diskin: The people that you're helping out, some of the participants have told us that if somebody next to them wasn't breathing right or was unconscious and they would say hey we need to get this person out of here and then other people would go get them, would that be you, would they tell you when somebody was unconscious?”
“Josh: They would pretty much like shout it out or say it and then there would be me and other people. Obviously I couldn't do it myself, I'm not that beefy of a guy but you know I would do it and I had a couple different guys help me each time with people taking them out.”
“Det. Poling: Let me ask you a question real quick. In 2009, what round did you leave the sweat lodge?”
“Josh: I left the, I missed the final round so I believe it was, I don't remember now if it was 8 or 9 total rounds but I left before the final round.”
“Josh: I did, when I left I was helping Sidney Spencer out and she was, she was weak. I don't know if she was unconscious but she was unable to move and so me and I believe it was two other guys and I couldn't tell you specifically who those guys were, were helping her out. We're literally like dragging and pulling her out and I, I mean we're all sweaty and dirty from the ground and my hands, I was holding her ankle, pulling her out and my hand slipped and I hit my head on one of the branches I guess. One of the supports, and fell down and so I left the lodge and sat out that last round just because I didn't know if I'd been hurt real bad or whatever. It was just a bump (Inaudible) it ended up being but I sat out that last round.”
I’m sure the reason Josh can’t tell you specifically who was helping him carry Sidney is because one of “those guys” was James Shore. It looks pretty bad when the employee in charge of saving people has a little headache and decides to sit one out. James Shore went back in to try and save Kirby Brown and neither of them survived. I doubt James Shore went back in the lodge thinking he could drag out Kirby on his own, I wonder if Josh actually refused to help.
“Det. Diskin: And these people that you're helping drag out, how many people were unconscious (Inaudible)”
“Josh: Sidney's the only one that I know that wasn't, you know, responding or helping in some way. Most of the other people were crawling or you know trying to move and Sidney was the one that I remember that was not moving.”
“Det. Diskin: How many people do you think would not have been able to make it out on their own without somebody helping them?”
“Josh: I'm not sure how to answer that. Like how many people, afterwards seeing what happened?”
“Det. Diskin: This is before the sweat lodge is over, while you're still inside. When somebody says hey this person needs help getting out of here.”
“Det. Diskin: How many people do you think that were helped total out of there that wouldn't have been able to get out on their own? That, as you saw them it appeared that they weren't making much effort to get out cause they were too weak.”
“Josh: Right, maybe, maybe one or two. I mean typically their able to at least”
“Det. Diskin: Crawl a little bit?”
“Josh: Crawl a little bit or move or make the effort and that's, you know, when we start to help them. Or, I mean, and most of the people just go in and out on their own. So I didn't really have to move that much in order to help move people out. You know, you know in the moment, in that time, Sidney was my only awareness.”
So, here’s a question. If Sidney Spencer, Kirby Brown, and Liz Neuman are all struggling about the same, why was Sidney allowed to live and not the others? James Shore must have been physically struggling, so why would Josh have let him go back into the lodge for Kirby instead of getting someone else to help? And why didn’t Josh care that Liz Neuman was dying? Is it because James Ray was mad at her for the night before?
“Det. Diskin: Okay. When these people were being helped, or in Sydney's case drug out of the sweat lodge, how did James Ray respond to that?”
“Josh: I don't think he did.”
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Did Greg Hartle leave the lodge early?”
“Josh: From what he told me afterward yes. In the moment I, I didn't know that he did or not.”
“Det. Diskin: Okay. Did Greg ever tell you what James Ray said to him when he was leaving the lodge?”
“Josh: I don't think so.”
“Det. Diskin: Did he tell you if James was upset with him for leaving the lodge?”
“Josh: I did not hear him say anything about James being upset at him for leaving, no.”
Seeing as how Greg Hartle got caught lying about witnessing Colleen Conaway’s death at Creating Absolute Wealth in July of 2009, it seems like there might be a chance he smartened up and decided to cooperate. We shall see.
“Det. Diskin: Did you hear someone say that they were having a heart attack?”
“Josh: That was during the last round when I was outside. He was very belligerent, loud, not being cooperative and at one point he was yelling, he was yelling, he was yelling that he had died and then he was yelling that he had a heart attack. And he was yelling a lot of different things and he just wasn't being cooperative and so it was pretty hard to figure out what was going on with him other than he was just out of it.”
It doesn’t sound hard to figure out what the problem was. If I had a heart attack and almost died and the people responsible for me didn't care and wanted to do things to further endanger my health and the well-being of others I'd be pretty belligerent and uncooperative too. It seems pretty straight forward to me.
“Det. Diskin: How did James Ray respond to that one?”
“Josh: James was still inside and [participant] was yelling so loud that everybody inside could hear it and obviously disrupting what was going on inside, the ceremony. So I remember James, cause [participant] kept yelling ‘I'm dead, I'm dead’ and James kept yelling out ‘no you're not dead’. And I thought it was surprising that James would yell to somebody outside the lodge from inside cause he, I mean, I don't think I've ever really heard him do that before. But he was trying to talk [participant] down, he said ‘you're not dead, you know, snap back into it’; that sort of thing.”
“Det. Diskin: Did you hear him [James Ray] say it's a good day to die?”
“Josh: Yeah he could have said that, he could have said that.”
Apparently Josh doesn’t know what “talking someone down” means, just like his wife, Megan, doesn’t know what “unconscious” means.
“Det. Diskin: Okay. And if, if, if Dennis says you know, I'm having a heart attack, I think I'm dying and James Ray says it's a good day to die, do you think James Ray means physical death or just a metaphor?”
“Josh: That's absolutely a metaphor, absolutely a metaphor, there's no question.”
No Josh, see, that's not what "metaphor" means. A metaphor is a comparison of two things by using one word instead of another. So when someone is talking about death by using words "die" that is what we call a "literal" statement. If someone were metaphorically talking about death they might use the analogy of a candle or winter or really anything that wasn't actual death. I'd also like to mention again that calling the schedule “a syntax" is also not how you use that word because I'm a writer and those kinds of things really irritate me.
There’s still more, so apparently there is going to be a part 4. Then I’m going back to summaries of the transcripts.
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Comments
You raise some important points. I wonder if that story about Josh hitting his head is really true, or just thought up to explain why he didn't do his job of carrying people out. Three people died simply because they weren't carried out in time.
Greg Hartle ducked out and was told by his boss to come back inside, which he obediently and then puked up inside the lodge, which would've helped the atmosphere no end. They say there wasn't a plan - but there was - people like Josh and Greg Hartle were supposed to carrying out those who had passed out. Even if they had great excuses for their failure to do this, one would expect them to feel gutted by the events that resulted from their weakmindedness. But I guess they are following their bosses lead.
At least Hartle doesn't seem to have twittered about it this time.
Thanks Cassandra. You show so much subtle insight into this case. I hope the prosecution reads your blog.
I have never in my life heard of "fasting from water". That was a bright idea for a "challange". Who ever came up with that one should get a darwin award.
You point out the insanity of "pushing-beyond" heastroke, etc. This is central to the case and apparently to Ray's defence. I have heard Ray's lawyers explain several times that "Ray was like a coach who is telling a matathon runner to push-through the last mile". Bryan, (Ray's lawyer) clearly explained this during the Larry King interview, apparently believeing we would all understand and agree with his logic.
The clear implications are that Ray's "sweat lodge" was designed by Ray as an endurance test to see who could mentally "push beyond" heat-stroke and dehydration. Ray's lawyers aren't even tying to hide that it was an endurance test. Rather they are trying to use it to justify Ray's behavior. Some defense.
Josh Frederickson is either terminally out of touch with consensus reality or he's an idiot if he really thinks anyone is going to believe him. He and his wife were given immunity--was it limited or full, do you know?
In any case, the thing to do with immunity is blab everything you know, particularly anything that may be self-incriminating. If you have been given immunity and you say something self-incriminating, the police cannot use it against you unless they can prove that they would have discovered it without your testimony. In a case such as this, that's an incredibly high barrier and if the Fredericksons had a lick of sense, they'd be doing a lot more talking.
To be fair, though, it is impossible to prove a negative. Josh Frederickson cannot prove he wasn't present in San Diego during Colleen Conaway's death. However, he could prove, perhaps via personal testimony or photographs that he was at a wedding in Minneapolis that day,
"Push beyond your limits" in this case meant "push your body beyond it's limits to survive" or "disregard the fact that you are dying". The theory being that the person will receive some great benefit from this.
The epitome of arrogance: "I know what is best for you more than you do (the proof is I can convince all these people to give me lots of money and by the way, I have been trained by shamans)." "Disregard your body's alarm system and you will become successful and rich like me (even though I can't pay my bail, but I have harmonic wealth)."
To Megan and Josh, I hope you think of Liz Neuman and what you put my family through every time you see your own Mothers and I hope you have problems sleeping every night like I do. You deserve everything you’ve got coming. You had a chance to make things right, share the truth, and honor your immunity contract, but completely blew it in my opinion. I can’t believe I ever shook your hands.
To Bryan:
Agreed--those incoherent interviews were shameful.
That immunity deal certainly isn't going to hold up if they aren't forthcoming.
Lock them up and maybe their memories will improve.
When you live in a "rules based world" I can understand why so many people like you have challenges understanding why people might stetch themselves by pushing their limits.
Perhaps you too may have a better quality of life when you stretch yourself beyond reaching for the remote control...?
@Brett. What the hell is the reason for pushing beyond limits? How does that help anyone? I really need that explained to me.
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