Proposition 8 protestors surround Salt Lake City's Mormon temple in 2008. Photo: picasaweb.google.com
The first-time ever support for gay-rights legislation by the Mormon Church, which threw its backing behind a pair of Salt Lake City fair-housing and employment ordinances that passed on November 10, seems like a welcome sign of progress. After all, the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS) became notorious for its promotion in 2008 of California's Proposition 8, which rescinded the right of same-sex couples to marry; so LDS support for LGBT protections in housing and the workplace is a good thing, right?
Not so fast. First of all, some conservatives believe the Church's gesture was little more than a public relations ploy to deflect criticism of staunch LDS opposition to marriage equality for gays. AP reporter Eric Gorski quoted a spokesman for the ultra-right wing Family Research Council who called the Mormon position "disappointing" and "a reaction to the attacks they came under after Proposition 8."
Secondly, the Utah-based church only lent its support to the legislation because the statutes contain explicit exemptions for religious institutions, meaning that the LDS itself will not have to abide by the anti-discrimination provisions.
Third, the language used by the Mormon Church in its support of the bills was overtly homophobic--as reported by the AP, in the words of LDS director of public affairs Michael Otterson, "The church supports these ordinances because they are fair and reasonable and do not do violence to the institution of marriage" [emphasis added]. Heaven forfend that same-sex couples should bludgeon traditional marriage to death by expecting their government to afford them the same rights and recognition it grants to heterosexual couples.
Which brings us to the fourth, and most pernicious downside to this story of LDS support for a handful of gay rights: According to the AP, the modest Salt Lake City-only ordinance would have had zero chance of passing without the backing of the Mormon Church. The AP article points out that "Utah lawmakers tend to quickly fall in line when the influential church makes a rare foray into legislative politics," in a state where the governor and over 80% of legislators are LDS members. Says the AP, previous gay-rights legislation, since it did not receive church approval, was "doomed from the start." This blatant influence of a religious institution over affairs of civil government is an egregious affront to the separation of church and state, and should not be tolerated in a nation that purports to be a secular democracy.
I won't be holding my breath.
Comments
Mormons would have to be even dumber than they appear to be to the outside world if they believe that Gay Americans are buying this little ploy for one second.
Then again, we ARE talking about Mormons here.
Oops. Was that intolerant?
"If men are to be precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter which may involve the most serious and alarming consequences that can invite the consideration of mankind, reason is of no use to us; the freedom of speech may be taken away, and dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." Address to officers of the Army (15 March 1783)
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity." Farewell Address
One problem with the load of assumptions there, the fact that the LDS church made it very clear from the beginning that it supported the basic rights of gays, while defending the institution of marraige. So far, all I'm seeing is a reaffimation of that stance, and a lot of bitter presentists teying to turn it into something it's not. Look up the definition of the word violence, there more then one, not all of them refer to physical violence as you are plainly used to. All I see here are people who live by an all or none point of view, you either do everything YOU want or anything you do is evil. Way to show how tolerent the left is, surely people will flock to you if you show them that you can't accept a show of acceptance without spitting out acid.
Megan:
In Salt Lake City, the ordinance was going to pass without the LDS Church. It was significant because of the message that was sent throughout the State and to the legislature.
This was precisely what Equality Utah was hoping for.
Now, you're saying it isn't good enough. This is proof that the GLBT community doesn't want tolerance but wants to mandate the universal acceptance of the gay lifestyle for all Americans regardless of freedom of religion or speech.
You also wrote:
"This blatant influence of a religious institution over affairs of civil government is an egregious affront to the separation of church and state, and should not be tolerated in a nation that purports to be a secular democracy."
This is just plain stupid. The LDS Church represents itself but the majority of AMERICANS in Utah adhere to a religious faith. The ADHERENTS make such influence possible. Get it?
It appears to me the Mormon Church is trying to destroy any belief in a God. I believe they are winning.
It's too bad that even when a highly conservative religious group reaches out to the gay community in support of some rights for gays (which is pretty unprecedented in the Christian-right) that they gay community blasts this as some sort of undercover ploy to pursue their agenda. The church could have easily not supported this ordinance. Let's hail this and move forward with even more understanding and tolerance (on both sides)!
Bill says "Oops. Was that intolerant?"
My answer: Yes, but certainly not surprising. I think there are different factions within the gay rights movement, one appear to be working against the other. There is one faction that rationally accepts an outstretched hand and is willing to accept movements in the right direction, and another that slaps the outstretched hand that offers anything short of a quantum leap. You clearly are from the latter camp. If your camp wins, the whole movement dies. You will win if you try to win the hearts and minds of the people. You do not win by being extremist and alienating people that simply see the world differently.
You know everyone always whines about how gays don't get any rights. In california gays are given what is called a domsetic union which grants gay couples ALL legal rights that are given to heterosexual couples. The only thing they are not given is the title marriage. So please spare me with all this crap about gays not being given any rights, they are given all rights, just not the title of marriage and should not be because marriage is a union between one man and one woman.
Also, at least the mormon church still stands for what it believes in and does not fold over due to public opinion. HOw many other faiths do that? Name one, and please do not say catholics, I can write a book on how much teh catholic shurch has changed due to public pressure.
ONe last thing, I know for a fact that the mormon church has NOTHING to do with legislation. All laws are made by the elected officials and NOT the church. If you don't believe it ask the elected officials who vote on the laws.
Don't worry, Bill, this whole page is full of intolerance. Have any of you tried to understand the views of religious folks on this, or do you just assume hate? Religious folks, including Latter Day Saints (like me) don't hate people, but we are very concerned, and will not support, acts (or a lifestyle) we consider immoral. You may not consider it immoral, but we do. Until we can bridge that gap -- without a page full of anonymous hate speech like this one -- we won't get anywhere.
Why is it there are more idiots living in California than any other state in the union?
It is already bad, noting statistically fourth of the state’s drivers cannot abide the rules of the road, let alone know how to drive, but are allowed by the state as competent people behind the wheel seeing they can past a test. This is the same example of those are declared hypocrites who claimed to be tolerant [Homosexuals – Lesbians] in seeking to find excuses to live a life style that is counterproductive not only to life itself but for the overall nation. It is the will of people and they simply need to get over it and move on.
So many Americans misunderstand the principle of "separation of church and state". The so-called "blatant influence of a religious institution over affairs of civil government" is NOT an egregious affront to the separation of church and state.
The stated principle was intended to protect religions and churches from government restraint and influence. It was never intended to protect the government from criticism from those same churches and religions. We should not only tolerated but also support in our nation an institution's right of free speech. Our country was founded on the principles of Christian/Judaic influence on the democracy and not on a secular democracy.
Please get your facts straight!
Bill,
Your comment didn't offend any of us Mormons, because we aren't insecure enough to care if people "tolerate" or "accept" us. We'll be criticized forever by those that oppose religion, and that's okay. You only show your own lack of sophistication with your pointless insults, and you appear a lot more "dumb" to those of us reading the comments than the people you are feabily attempting to put down.
Sorry we don't want gay marriage, but the last time I checked, the majority of Americans, including non-religious people, opposed gay marriage. You can try to reduce that issue to a lack of "tolerance" or bigotry if you'd like, but most people are intelligent enough to see that Mormons can love gay people, which we do, and still not be in favor of their unions considered the same as a marriage legally. This is a political issue, not a tolerance issue, and you can rant and rave about how "hateful" we are all you want. The truth is Mormons are loving, wonderful people generally.
This article just proves that some people just want to keep on hating regardless of the facts. Some people are bent on being anti-Mormon bigots. Nothing the Mormon church could do would satisfy them. They are genuine anti-Christian and anti-Mormon bigots. Keep up the hatred -- pathetic...
Megan, if you aspire to be a legitimate journalist, you need to get the name of the church right: there's no such church as the "Church of Latter Day Saints." It is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Internet searches, FTW!
The question has to be asked whether you give the same thought to people belonging to Unions as you do to churches? I believe in other states that legislation and such doesn't get past because a union or a specific group has enough members in the area to fight the issue. So how are they diffrent? Is it because they are secular institutions that they get a free pass on influencing a public issue or is it that your biased to who you deem unworthy of woking in our democratic process.
This is categorically NOT journalism. I will no longer read the examiner and am writing a letter to the editors explaining that if their journalists can't even get the name right of the groups they are writing about, let alone the content and issues, there is no need for me to waste my time reading their pages.
You're 100% correct in what you said--which is why all the Morg have their magic undies in a twist.
Ok so #1 no matter what the church does they get rediculed, #2- Just because they're gay doesnt mean they should be mistreated...love the sinner, hate the sin. We wont support what they do but we do support their right as Gods Children. #3, Their are laws being passed that give gays the same rights who live together as straight, married people (ie insurance benefits). Problem with that is that if sstraight people live together and arent married they dont get those same benefits. Or do they? I could be wrong? If I am right than that isnt fair to the straight people who arent married but live together.....
"Dark side to Mormon Church support for gay rights in Salt Lake City"
There simply IS no 'other side' to the Mormon cult - EXCEPT darkness.
And, of course, magical underpants.
It doesn't matter what the church does, it won't be acceptable to the GLBTQ community. The church is not going to bend on the institution of marriage--marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and among the most sacred ordinances of the church. The church will not ever accept the practices of homosexuality, bisexuality, or of sex change operations.
However, the church has every right to voice its support for opinions. A church organization declaring its support for legislation is NOT a mixture of church and state. The mixing of church and state is when there is a state-run or state-supported religion. A church has the same rights as every other organization to make statements on politics. The fact that the church is supporting this legislation is evidence of their desire to prevent the GLBTQ community from suffering at the hands of people who don't understand that we're all people--whether we agree on moral questions or not.
I'm gay and I'm happy that the Mormon church supported any gay rights ordinance. People like Bill need to see that this is a gigantic leap forward for a group that not that long ago was promoting reparitive therapy. People change. Don't slap them in the face and chastise them for not changing quickly enough. That does not help our cause. We need to be compassionate, or we will become a mirror image of those who cause us so much pain. Honey truly attracts more flies than vinegar. You are driving away people who might have supported us. This is one of the things that frustrates me about gay rights organizations. We won't get anywhere if we keep calling each other names.
Alex,thanks for being understanding. With all the discussion about magic underwear (which is a great example of the incredible ignorance people have about us Mormons) and supposed hate, I was beginning to think this was like the other 99.9% of comment sections on the internet, a place for angry, immature, and ignorant people to lash out at the LDS Church for it's supposed crimes against humanity.
The article we're all commenting on is sophomoric and biased, which I could have assumed from reading the title. Unlike what some of the commentors apparently believe, Mormons do not have any "dark" agenda against homosexuals. In fact, this is a clear case of the Church practicing exactly what it preaches, which is respect of each person's God-given free will and choice to do what they please. Yes, the Church opposes gay unions being referred to as "marriage", but that position has nothing to do with hate. I don't hate ANYONE, and Mormons in general are a very accepting and loving group.
When I resigned from the Mormon Church they tried to destroy my marriage. Mormons told my wife to divorce me and that I was better off dead than apostate. They said she'd be given to another man in the afterlife, and that I was no longer a part of her “eternal family.”
The Mormon Church institutionally seeks to destroy the families of ex-Mormons by isolating non-members from church-sanctioned activities like weddings, baptisms, etc. Their policies are calculated, putative, and designed to coerce members into remaining in the church against their will.
On the other hand, I’ve never had a Gay person try to break up my family. I’ve never had a Gay person tell my kids or my wife that I’m a Son of Perdition or that I’d be better off dead.
It's time to quash the lie that Mormons are pro-family and Gays threaten traditional marriages.
Duwayne Anderson
Author of "Farewell to Eden: Coming to terms with Mormonism and science"
I'm a devout Mormon and was really pleased and not surprised at all the Church supported the ordinance. They signaled as such in an August 8th, 2008 statement that went unnoticed largely by the press.
Then I read hateful garbage like this and I wonder once again, "I'm standing up for these people?"
This line is very revelatory:
**Secondly, the Utah-based church only lent its support to the legislation because the statutes contain explicit exemptions for religious institutions, meaning that the LDS itself will not have to abide by the anti-discrimination provisions.**
Why should the church be forced to change its beliefs? If it doesn't believe in same-sex marriage why shouldn't it be protected from those who wish to impose their views on it?
The pro-same sex marriage would find less opposition to their agenda if they allowed that conscientious objectors should not be forced to change their policies and practices.
Because you know, there has to be a dark side.(?!?) Why can't you just be happy for the support they give? You can go back years and see official statements of the Mormon church saying they are totally against any sort of violence or hate crimes committed against gays. It is only natural that a church would not want the government to control it's doctrine. Do you think the Catholic Church wants the government to force them to ordain female priests and provide abortions? Neither does the Mormon church support any law that will let the government overrule the church's doctrine. Common sense. Why all the negativity? Go after the sickos who call themselves "Christians" while picketing funerals of AIDS victims and leave the Mormons alone.
There is nothing on the face of the earth more pathetic than the whining of religious bigots claiming those of us capable of dealing with the real world are prejudiced against them. We aren't the ones promoting laws to discriminate against people.
Mormon scum refuse to even abide by non-discrimination laws they claim to support. This doesn't have a damned thing to do with marriage, it has to do with housing and employment discrimination, which Mormon bigots want to be allowed to practice.
First off, the name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It becomes hard within the first few lines to take seriously a journalist who can't even do their homework properly on such a simple matter. Then I read the rest of the article; this isn't jornalism at all. Easily noticable grammatical errors were present, and then there's the issue of the article being a blatant attempt to blast the LDS Church. This is an opinion article, and a poor one at that.
Articles like this are what I consider to be 'cutting off your nose to spite your face'. The vast majority of people will not turn a 180 and embrace the views you wish them to. Wars are won in battles, and this is one that the LGBT community can count as a victory. Stop looking a gift horse in the mouth and move on to the next battle. The struggle for racial equality had to be won slowly...one at a time, and there was almost no concievable religious ground for the opposition to stand on, why would this be any easier?
In other words, the Church's olive branch threatens her ability to castigate Mormons as bigots and evil homophobes. Better for the LGBT movement to keep the conflict an "us vs. them" fight.
A simple yes or no question for Mormons:
Do you or do you not oppose housing and workplace discrimination? If you actually do oppose discrimination why demand the law exempt your church?
Quit lying, quit changing the subject, just answer the question.
I think that those who have a beef with the church will find and use anything against the church. Remember in debate class how you could fervently and convincingly argue either side of a question? That's all it is. Enemies of the church will never be satisfied. It's pointless to dialog with them. That's why there are so few responses defending the church in all these comments. Nothing new here.
I believe you misspelled "enemies of discrimination" there, Brucie.
And it's really obvious what the church could do to get those of us who oppose their bigotry to leave them alone: stay out of our freaking lives. Nobody is forcing you morons to marry anyone in your churches, why do you insist on demanding that churches that aren't bigoted against gays cannot marry a loving couple?
We live in such a self-centered world. Everyone that dares to not support someones self-mutliating choices are named haters. Not mention choices that harm the social good. Does anyone ever count the cost of unabated sex on family relationships, individuals, children... No because it is fun and we only think of self these days. So DAMN those who may stop the fun, they are haters. A little common sense is needed... Maybe we should ask the question of where this all leads. Do you think Jihadists are really upset about America because of freedom or their open debauchery... I think it is the debauchery they are affraid of... Happiness never is found at the end of spent endulgence. Gay rights is nothing more than allowing individuals to continue to deceive themselves.
So Dan is in agreement with Islamic terrorists. It's always nice when the religious right admit they are all alike.
So many Americans misunderstand the principle of "separation of church and state". The so-called "blatant influence of a religious institution over affairs of civil government" is NOT an egregious affront to the separation of church and state.
The principle was intended to protect religions and churches from government intrusion, restraint, and influence. It was never intended to protect the government from criticism from those same churches and religions. We should not only tolerate but also support in our nation an institution's right of free speech. Our country was founded on the principles of Christian/Judaic influence on the democracy and not on a secular democracy.
Please get your facts straight!
Move to Iran if you want to live in a country where religious leaders make the laws. Bonus for you: they actually execute gay people there, so you can really get your jollies reveling in the misery of others.
Those of us who love this country for all it stands for will fight you every step of the way as you try to institute Mormon Sharia.
Regarding: "Heaven forfend that same-sex couples should bludgeon traditional marriage to death by expecting their government to afford them the same rights and recognition it grants to heterosexual couples."
Americans don't get our right to marry from the government.
For that matter, I'm not sure where the govt gets the right to marry anyone. Marriage is a religious tradition, and the only reason I see for government to be involved at all is tax law.
So because your church preaches hatred of their fellow man gays should be prevented from seeing loved ones in the hospital, from jointly owning property, from the myriad GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS that are based on marriage? The anti-marriage movement is based on nothing other than hate, as demonstrated by the fact that you lie and you fight to prevent ANY recognition of same-sex couples.
Those churches that don't preach hatred of their fellow man are prevented from legally marrying loving couples because of the bigots claiming they speak for God. Preventing the legal recognition of same sex marriage because your sect is bigoted is not just an act of anti-gay discriminatiuon, it is religious discrimination against every sect that doesn't preach the same ignorant hate your cult founded by a pedophile conman preaches.
James, if you're going to give someone a hard time about their spelling, maybe you should ensure that you get discrimination right. Furthermore, you are a prime example of why the LGBT movement is having such a hard time integrating into society.
Is it right for people to show such obvious distain for members of this group? No, not in the least. However you return in kind, and will slap away the hand of anyone who is not 100% making the motions you want them to. Here's the harsh truth of the matter: in regards to rights, the LGBT group WILL have to fight fo them, just as any other minority has. So accepting a step in the right direction, even if it is self-serving, need to be done graciously. Yes, it sucks, but it's the only way for you to get where you're trying to go.
The mormons still experience a great deal of discrimination...and your bashing makes you little more than a self-righteous hypocrite
How exactly is lying about supporting anti-discrimination laws while demanding the right to practice discrimination even remotely "supporting gay rights"? I'm supposed to be surprised that lying bigots think forcing others to be nice while exempting themselves proves anything other than that they are lamely attempting to save face without actually doing anything?
As for the whining about Mormons facing discrimination: Nobody is proposing that Mormons be treated as second class citizens, that they be denied the rights other taxpayers have.
It's pretty rich for people promoting laws to treat others as lesser beings under the law to whine about how mean it is for people to call them names. Actually Mormons are worse than bigots- people wouldn't have a problem with them if they were just preaching hate from the pulpit, it's the fact they choose to force their backwards views on the rest of us through the law that bothers people.
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