Courtesy Undateable.com
A new book titled Undateable: 311 Things Men Do That Guarantee They Won't Be Dating or Having Sex compiles dating deal-breakers from hundreds of women, as a sort of "Don't" list for men who are interested in dating and/or having sex with them, as reported by W.J. Walton. Chief among them is playing Dungeons & Dragons, listed as a "storm cloud" (one step above a red flag, and a step below "not getting any").
189. PLAY DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Telling a girl you're a "Dungeon Master" might freak her out. Just a thought. INSIDE TIP: This also applies to online versions of the game, like World of Warcraft. Now you're just a digital dork.
If the authors didn't make it clear that gamers aren't worth dating or having sex with, there's this exchange, from an interview with Elle magazine:
Anne Coyle: Can I add one more? Okay, I think I would have a nervous breakdown if someone took me to a Medieval Times festival.
Ellen Rakieten: “Hey Anne, do you wanna go on a Star Trek convention on our first date?”
AC: I mean, I would be a wreck.
Let there be no doubt that Undateable, despite its pretentious attempt to educate men about mistakes no one will tell them, is squarely aimed at upper class white women. The men Undateable is supposedly attempting to educate are highly unlikely to buy it. There is a particularly ugly series of implications festering behind the gloss of this dishy book -- many of the cited characteristics belong to ethnic and class groups that just happen to not be white or upper class.
At heart, Undateable's underlying theme is that men need to grow up, and that by discarding childish things the boy becomes a man. The problem, of course, is that standard definitions of masculinity have flexed to a global society. Being a man is less about what you wear and more about what you do. If more men were concerned about being true to themselves (and their hobbies) and thereby being true to their families, the world would be considerably less of a screwed-up place.
But instead we have books like Undateable, reinforcing that a man isn't worth a date if he plays a role-playing game. A book that should be shunned or ignored now appears on ABC's Good Morning America, in The New York Post, on Oprah.com, and even an upcoming issue of the New Mom's Handbook (!).
What's distinctly distressing about Undateable is its reach. Its authors, Ellen Rakieten and Anne Coyle, have influence in mainstream publications and media. Rakieten was a key force on The Oprah Winfrey Show and more recently, The Marriage Ref. Coyle is a senior advertising copywriter and designer featured in several major publications, including O at Home. In short, this book goes beyond the usual pathetic attempt to be controversial by denigrating and marginalizing a particular group -- the authors have real influence, and it shows in the amount of media penetration this execrable collection has already gathered.
Your turn: Should women date male gamers?
Comments
I think they're full of rubbish. Speaking a) as someone who classifies herself as a geek, complete with Star Trek convention plans, and b) as someone who has a multitude of friends who are gamers, rp-ers, scifi-geeks, you-name-it, their assumptions are extremely insulting. Geeks are sexy, thank you very much. And guess what else? It's usually the geeky ones who are the smartest, nicest, and most interesting. Un-datable? Un-lay-able? Guess again.
I'd just like to add a note that I incorrectly failed to attribute W.J. Walton, who originally made me aware of the book via the CAR-PGa. I've since corrected that oversight and apologize to Mr. Walton for the error.
I have been married for 15 years and have two children. Been gaming for about 30years. So if your a successful dater you find true love and settle down. So I guess I have won the dating game. With a non-gamer to boot.
Oh noes! My gamer guy is undatable? I suppose I should drop out of all of the tabletop games and LARPS we're in together, and insist that he do so as well, or else break up with him immediately. O' thank you Book, for opening my eyes to the horrible curse of d20 love!
Hm, sense I am about to enter combat. Better roll for initiative. Already rolling my eyes right outta my head.
I've been gaming for 30 years and been married for 15. However, unless the prospective person is also a gamer, ie someone I met while gaming, it would be foolish to bring then to a "geek" gathering on the first date, which is what the quote mentioned.
Geeks suck in bed..
I'm afraid you're exaggerating. Those in doubt, go to amazon & search inside the book for dungeons. It simply says don't tell a girl you're a DM or you'll freak her out. Truly, having been one for 25 years they're right. She will either do a face like "huh?" or immediately classify you. Particularly if you think that will impress her (Even fellow gamers are most times unimpressed with anyone being a DM). They are also not saying to hide it, just that she will probably freak.
I should think she'll date me, seeing as how we're engaged.
I want to falcon punch the conformist bitch's that wrote this right in the teeth...
Maybe for the high society types, but the women I date like D&D, sci fi, Star Trek conventions. just remember how do you address the geek 10 years after High School? Hello Boss.
As long as a lot of women seem to keep going for the "bad boy" stereotype that beats the crap out of them and treats them like dirt... wears the women like a trophy on their arm, I'm thinking maybe more women should be dating "geeks" anyway.
Gamers, yes. D&D players, no.
If the girl's not a geek herself, don't act like one while you're getting to know her. Don't hide your D&D stuff (unless it covers your entire house, 40 Year Old Virgin style), but don't make a big deal out of it either. Do 'normal' stuff with her first. Restaurants, cinema, walks, musuems - whatever she likes. If she seems interested in your RPGs, discuss them openly - not at too much length - and invite her along if she wants to play.
Gamer. DM. Married six years now, and to a smart, beautiful, urban, fun white non-gamer with style.
I love the quote from one of their Facebook quizzes: "Basically only a small percentage of guys out there are truly 'dateable.' For the majority of you..."
Seriously?
If the authors want to so severely limit their dating pool, they're welcome to; in my experience smart women are a lot more open to the idea that, as Megan says, "Geeks are sexy".
I love playing D&D and watching Star Trek with my boyfriend. Generalizations like this are obviously only true for a portion of the population.
The best dating advice is to be yourself and do what you love, and the right person for you will be attracted to that.
Please, I've been a gamer for over 20 years, and while I'd never throw it out there on the first date, their are plenty of women out there who could care less. . . .including my fiancee. Even before meeting her I had actually *shocker* been in relationships and did pretty well with some very attractive and interesting women. Yup, certainly let them get to know you first in order to help disperse any stereotypes they she may have up in her head, but don't worry about it either. Of course, if she's that uptight about things like this, she's not worth your time anyway. As far as growing up, none of us really do (at least if you want to be any kind of interesting person), so please put that notion to rest already.
PUH-LEEZE! Hasn't that old stereotype been laid to rest yet? I've only ever dated geeks and gamers. I'd much rather game than watch football.
Well, I'm 45, and happily married to a gamer woman. I haven't been dateless, or sexless, for any length of time since I was 19 (yeah, I started late, no shame in admitting that). I *only* date gamer (or at least geeky/sci-fi) women. I am not particularly attractive (more the opposite, really), but I seem to do OK, mostly because I've found that if you can stimulate a woman's mind, you can get around to stimulating the rest of her in short order. :) However, it seems like the women who would buy this book don't have minds to stimulate, and ladies, when it comes to brains, as far as I'm concerned... size matters.
The only reason I'm undateable is because I've been married for 14 years. Sorry Anne and Ellen, I'm off the market.
Been a gamer for a little more than 20 years. Two things bother me about dismissing this assertion outright. One, many (and I mean *many*) gamers I have met over the years lack a reasonable amount of social skills. In fact, some gamers' personal hygiene has even been a significant issue. Yes, there are non-gamers who have the same shortcomings, but the gaming community is not normal in this regard. Two, gamers (like many hobbyists) tend toward focusing on their particular hobby at the expense of the rest of their lives. Yes, I'm a gamer, but I'm also a husband, father, auto racing fan, soccer coach, etc. I play rpg's rarely because I have other hobbies. As a result, I have trouble finding a regular group, because most such groups want to play on a schedule that is just too demanding of my time.
While the book may be prejudiced, it isn't racist as you seem to be implying. Yes, it's definitely aimed at upper-class white women...and the upper class white men who want to bed them. As a roleplayer who has known a lot of other roleplayers, the warning signs for women are quite accurate; roleplayers tend to have more emotional problems and psychological baggage than the average person. That can be a turn-off to many (successful, ambitious) women.
ps: denigrating; execrable.
Hi Innominata,
I disagree. Of the many things to find distasteful about this book, there's the comment that "normal" women were interviewed to determine what makes men undateable. You know, normal women, not...non-normal women, who apparently go for gamers.
To clarify precisely the context of the comment I dug up the quote from Google books and included it in the article.
P.S. Thanks for the edits, I updated the page!
I guess that explains why men make up most of the fanbase for nerdy things like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Twilight.
PS "I want to falcon punch the conformist bitch's that wrote this right in the teeth..." doesn't undermine their argument so much...
PS Come to think of it medieval fairs seem to have a lot of women going don't they?
Anyway, this kind of sneering disdain for anything non-mainstream strikes me as just a way of creating an identity and hiding poor social skills: just like various subcultures' sneering disdain for anything mainstream.
I have been playing RPGs since I was 13, DMing most of that time. I am 41 now and happily married to a beautiful gamer girl for 8 years. While I haven't been prolific with women, I've had my share of dates, and I really can't say that D&D has been a deal-breaker. Many of the ladies I've gone out with knew I enjoyed RPGs. Many also knew that RPGs was not the center of my identity, although I do consider myself a gamer. The authors are entitled to their opinions about gamers, but I believe that they are writing about a stereotype and probably have not met any gamers outside that stereotype. Oh, and my first date was never a "geek" gathering.
It seems to me that this book IS NOT aimed at upper class white women. I've found that it's educated upper class girls that tend to be the most "gamer-friendly" and even are gamers themselves.
It seems more likely that this book is aimed at middle-class women who are less likely to risk making mistakes with their uterus. Upper class girls have the support system in place if they bed a guy with bad genes. They can nurture the child to compensate for it.
Somewhere along the lines, "gamer" and "dungeon master" became synonymous with loser genes. But, the smart girls tend to look at the whole picture, so, it's all good.
For the record, I've been gaming since I was 11 and have dated and had sex with 100s of women. Am I a sex addict? Probably. Do I play D&D and still manage to get laid? Definitely.
I have been a gamer for over 30 years, and have been married for the last 15 years. I'm pretty sure she'll date me.
Been happily married to a gamer for almost 5 yrs now. Was attracted knowing he was one (a DM in fact) and now we play as a family too. Part of what attracted me was he was creative enough to be a DM and he did play.
It's as simple as this. I could give a crap what somebody thinks about what I do for a hobby. It probably isn't going to be a topic of conversation on a first date, but I don't hide myself. At some point, early in a dating relationship, hobbies come up as a topic of conversation. What am I going to do lie? Drop the hobby (or pretend not to have it) just because somebody might think less of me? Er, no. At some point, anybody I date more than a few times is going to have to learn to like/love "the real me." Might as well get her started early.
The woman I married was a Sci-Fi/Fantasy reader. It wasn't much of a stretch to suspect she might be interested in RPGs. I told her what I was about, what I liked, and boom, gamer girlfriend/fiancee/ and eventually wife. Now we have two sons, and my family is my main gaming group.
As someone else said, why limit yourself to what somebody else approves of in a potential dating partner. Open your mind, and you just might get turned on to something you never even knew existed.
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