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Bishop Thomas Tobin/Patrick Kennedy/catholic news
Bishop Thomas Tobin, the bishop who barred Patrick Kennedy from receiving communion said in an interview with CNN that he did so because he just cant understand how a catholic, any catholic, even a legislator, can take the stand on abortion as a legal choice for women that Kennedy has taken.
By saying he "can't understand" how Kennedy could vote contrary to catholic doctrine, it' a tacit admission on the part of bishop Tobin that he either doesn't have any understanding of the establishment clause of the first amendment or he does has no respect for it , and doesnt care, except when the Catholic church is using it to avoid paying taxes.
It is either arrogance or ignorance on the part of Tobin since he shows he has no understanding nor respect for the fact that its Kennedy's obligation is to serve, not Catholics or the church, ( that is Tobin's obligation, not Kennedy's) but the vast majority of his constituents regardless of their individual religious beliefs. And Tobin's admission that he can't understand how Kennedy can justify his position on abortion as a legislator just re-enforces the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson and the founders who wrote the establishment clause to specifically deny the church from having any official influence on the affairs of state.
But Tobin doesn't want to understand this. Or he does and doesnt care. He seems to think its Kennedy's obligation to vote according to church doctrine and he practically said so in so many words.
If this is the official position of the church then they should make it clear to catholic members of congress that they are either to vote according to catholic church doctrine or resign from congress, since, based on Tobin's point of view, no member of congress can or should vote for legislation which the church does not approve.
If the church hierarchy has the courage of their convictions they should issue such a proclimation and then they wont have to wonder how a catholic member of congress could vote for a bill that the church opposes.
The church is certainly free to make such a pronunciation and catholic members of congress are certainly free to make their own decisions as to whether they want to remain in congress and vote according to their constituents wishes or leave if those wishes are in conflict with church doctrine.
But the church cant have it both ways. If they want to lobby for or against legislation ( and they do -- they have a lobbying effort in Washington D.C. staffed with 350 people) then let them renounce the establishment clause and with it their tax exempt status on which their tax exemption is solely based.
On the other hand if church hierarchy like Bishop Tobin wish to keep their tax exempt status it, then let them understand that the same establishment clause they use to keep from paying taxes comes from the same constitution Patrick Kennedy took oath to defend. Then let them decide where they stand.
Comments
Clearly you have no understanding of the Catholic Church. Bishop Tobin is within his right to do as he has done. He is the leader of his flock and he is upholding Catholic doctrine about the sanctity of life. Unfortunately Kennedy does not--Kennedy is the one who can't have it both ways. Perhaps Kennedy should become an Episcopalian where anything goes? Bravo Bishop Tobin and thumbs down to the writer of this article--or whatever you call it.
This article reflects a serious misunderstanding of Bishop Tobin's position. He's not looking for any "official" influence over the legislative process. Rather, he's speaking from the point of view of the spiritual life of the Roman Catholic Church, which is that Kennedy, while he is of course legally free to vote as he likes, is putting his Catholic membership in danger by voting in certain kinds of ways. Bishop Tobin doesn't want the authority to kick Kennedy out of Congress, but but he certainly has the authority to limit or cut off Kennedy's participation in the Roman Catholic Church. That's all he's claiming.
As for the establishment clause, it is precisely for the protection of religion from the state, not for the barring of religious people from lobbying the state just as any other organization in society can.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." Now lets see... if you change a word or two here it becomes "Churches shall make no attempt to influence government." So it isn't what the constitution says that matters, it's what people would like it to mean that matters. Gotcha... only someone with a real understanding of the hidden meaning of the text could make the first sentence become the second. Shades of George Orwell.....
The Catholic Church is shrinking and with such a reactionary hierarchy it is really no surprise, they are just the speeding up the process for the conservatives who want an ideologically pure church to their liking. For them doctrine comes first and is more important than a compassion that understands the frailty and difficulty of human life. Yes, I guess it is easier to love a fetus than an actual human being. Nuance something the leadership in the church has difficulty with. What's next withholding communion for Rhode Island Catholics that vote for Kennedy?
OT, no personal offense intended but this article contains many spelling, grammatical, style and logic errors. Of course we all do, but this brings everything into question since the expected basics are sorely lacking.
That aside, Bishop Tobin is going down a very dangerous path and Kennedy continues on one. We faithful now know a horrifying bit of how hypocritical enabling Bishops are. But most were already aware of Kennedy clan hypocrites. They do seem to have a speed dial open line to the Vatican when Church paperwork is needed.
God forgive me but it's my guilty pleasure to see these types go at it in order to gain more power. This is the shared goal of clergymen and politicians.
P.S. My apologies for Frank, the cafeteria catholic who insulted Episcopalians. I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, a catechist and an RCIA team member and in our doctrine discussions we learn we are to rejoice and respect fellow Christians by appreciating that they found a fitting Church community.
Bishop Tobin did not bar Rep Kennedy from Communion he asked him to refrain from it. When will you guys get it right!
"...the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson and the founders who wrote the establishment clause which was written to specifically deny the church from having any official influence on the affairs of state."
Actually, the establishment clause prohibited the government from establishing a national religion. This paved the way for freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
I encourage the author to study some history and reevaluate his ignorant statements in order to avoid losing more credibility.
“The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State.”
--James Madison, Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819
If the Catholic church were truly driven to decrease the millions of abortions they would do everything to educate young adults of any religion as to the practice of safe sex and responsibilities of parenting. They have done the opposite solely for the sake of empowerment and control.
Patrick Kennedy claims that he can support abortion and still be a faithful Catholic, he is wrong and the Bishop has corrected him, as he should.
Bishop Tobin did not bar Kennedy from receiving Holy Communion, he suggested that he not receive Holy Communion for the simple fact that Kennedy has placed himself out of communion with the Church and Faith which he claims to embrace.
The truth of the matter is that he does not embrace the Catholic Faith therefore he should not present himself to receive Holy Communion because he is not in communion with the Church.
Abortion is WRONG, always and everywhere. This is the truth and that's why the Church proclaims it.
Sure, Tim, abortion is always wrong. Let's have you deliver that good news to victims of rape and incest.
Didn't you ever hear the non-hypothetical in which a priest impregnated a woman and the Church demanded an abortion? I'm guessing you're in the front pew on Sundays and yet the last to know what really happens in a human church.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion; or prohibt the free exercise thereof."--That is what the Constitution says. Can you explain your bizarre opinion of how Tobin violated this? In fact, the denial of Communion may be protection under the Free Exercise part.
Bishop Tobin is not asking Patrick Kennedy to enact a law recognizing the Immaculate Conception. He is asking Kennedy to act like a member of the Catholic Church he has freely chosen to join on issues related to the legal arena. If Kennedy's conscience compels him to act out of accordance with the Catholic church of which he is a voluntary member, there are two very obvious solutions: one, maintain the Catholic title he wishes to invoke at his convenience by accepting Church teaching on these issues, or two, exercise the liberty granted him by both the Church and the State and exclude himself from communion with the Catholic Church. As it stands, it is Rep. Kennedy that seems to be the one who wants it both ways.
Examiner Rubin who claimed that Bishop Tobin doesn't understand the Constitution, knows little or nothing about the establishment clause of the Constitution and even less about Catholicism.
Hey Bishop! Why is it not alright to support a woman's right to choose, but alright to continue funding two immoral, illegal, imperialist wars OF terror in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Oh, that's right, they're Muslim, and as we all know, Christianity has killed more people, tortured more people, and stolen more wealth in the name of their religion than all the other religions, including Islam, combined!
Why is "Thou shalt not commit hypocrisy" not one of the Ten Commandments?
During the eight year long Dubya/dick nightmare, the Republicans had complete control of the White House, the House of Representatives, the Senate and even the Supreme Court for four straight years.
Yet, during those four years, the Republicans never tried to outlaw abortion or reverse Roe v. Wade.
Why? Because they want to cynically keep abortion legal so they can use it as a wedge issue to(unsuccessfully) attract more conservative votes to the polls on Election Day.
During the Dubya/dick nightmare years, unwed pregnancies, as well as abortions skyrocketed. During Democratic administrations, these numbers always reverse themselves.
So without a doubt, if anyone can be called "baby killers" it is indeed the Republicans.
Hey Bishop! Why didn't you deny Communion to the Catholic Republicans?
Oh, that's right, by definition, there are no truly Christian Republican politicians. That would require treating everyone the way they themselves wish to be treated, which is like
Interesting that Mr. Rubin did not quote the text of the First Amendment. If he had done this, all would see that what Bishop Tobin has done has NOTHING to do with the "establishment clause" -- nada, zero, zip, zilch. The First Amendment is aimed at CONGRESS -- not Bishops. The Constitutional illiteracy in our country (but, worse, our Biblical illiteracy) is appalling.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
Communications Director, Institute on the Constitution
Recovering Republican
JLof@aol.com
During the eight year long Dubya/dick nightmare, the Republicans had complete control of the White House, the House of Representatives, the Senate and even the Supreme Court for four straight years.
Yet, during those four years, the Republicans never tried to outlaw abortion or reverse Roe v. Wade.
Why? Because they want to cynically keep abortion legal so they can use it as a wedge issue to(unsuccessfully) attract more conservative votes to the polls on Election Day.
During the Dubya/dick nightmare years, unwed pregnancies, as well as abortions skyrocketed. During Democratic administrations, these numbers always reverse themselves.
So without a doubt, if anyone can be called "baby killers" it is indeed the Republicans.
Hey Bishop! Why didn't you deny Communion to the Catholic Republicans?
Oh, that's right, by definition, there are no truly Christian Republican politicians. That would require treating everyone the way they themselves wish to be treated, which is like
Unfortunately, the founders did not believe the Establishment Clause barred religiously inspired morality should be kept out of civil affairs. Countless court decisions from the 19th century show this is the case.
For example, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the ban on polygamy because it was contrary to the norms of Christianity. Other courts upheld blasphemy laws for the same reason.
It is shear ignorance to make the argument you are making.
The Establishment Clause was intended to prevent Congress from passing a law mandating belief in specific theologies. The left has gotten away with distorting the Establishment Clause long enough.
Oh, that's right, they're Muslim, and as we all know, Christianity has killed more people, tortured more people, and stolen more wealth in the name of their religion than all the other religions, including Islam, combined!
Wrong. Militant atheists have murdered more people in the past 200 years than all of the previous religious wars.
I love bigots. What about all of the hospitals, houses for the poor and charitable institutions Christians have established.
Atheists have little credibility to criticize anyone.
Mary,
Yes, abortion is wrong even in cases of rape and incest.
Every soul is created by God.
Every person, with no exception, is created by Him in His likeness and image. Every person has dignity because of this Truth.
Even in those most difficult and painful circumstances, the child should not be murdered because of someone else's sin.
Through the most evil act in the history of the world, (God incarnate, crucified) He brought about the greatest good in the history of the world (our salvation). God can bring good out of any evil act, with no exception. Trusting Him is the right choice, even in the face of great suffering and pain. Suffering is redemptive. Easier said than done? This is true, but the circumstances don't make killing a person right. The circumstances in that case, make doing the right thing much harder, but it doesn't change Truth.
I can't stand this kind of reporting with the false headline. The Bishop didn't say he didn't understand the Constitution at all. He said he couldn't understand how any Catholic could take such a stand on abortion. And come to think of it, the writer is the one who doesn't understand the Constitution, which was designed to protect life and liberty first, not sex, followed by murder. Roe v Wade got through by the most maligned interpretation of the Constitution. Citizens should be frightened of this. Because if the Supreme Court can see inherent protection for abortionists in the Constitution, they can twist it to make it mean anything they want. And if the Constitution can be interpreted any way the Supreme Court pleases, then guess what? You have no rights. Your rights are determined by the opinions of 5 out of 9 people.
Tim, as a Catholic I appreciate your comments but the matter is our beliefs and theology can not be codified in a republic. Just as the Church isn't a democracy, America isn't a theocracy. Even Ave Maria, FL failed.
The question isn't what these politicians believe according to Bishops such as Rep. Kennedy's, it's that they must vote for laws that would impose their belief and the Church's rulings on those who are not Catholic, in fact on those whose equally valid religious beliefs are in direct opposition to the Church. FYI, under Jewish Law, if the life of the mother is threatened by a pregnancy, abortion is not just allowed, but required as Judiasm places substantially greater value on the life of the mother than the potential life that the fetus represents - yes, we disagree as to when life begins as a matter of religious faith, imagine that. This is a spot on example for why we have the First Amendment to the Constitution which, BTW, elected officials are sworn to uphold.
Mary,
The Truth is not an imposition. When the law of the land is in opposition to the Law of God, the law of the land is in fact the imposition. To impose ones belief that you and I should fund abortion with our tax dollars is an imposition.
If Kennedy wants to support abortion, that's his unfortunate choice, but to then claim that he is a faithful Catholic is a lie and a cause for public scandal, that's why the Bishop has corrected him, for the good of his soul, not as an attempt to influence democracy or build a theocracy. Kennedy is the one who is at fault because he claims a faith that he openly denounces, thereby possibly leading otherwise faithful Christians astray. Bishop Tobin knows what's truly more important here and it aint politics. He knows Who it is most important to please.
I hope Mr. Kennedy realizes the same, someday, and truly embraces the faith that he falsely lays claim to.
Mary,
The Truth is not an imposition. When the law of the land is in opposition to the Law of God, the law of the land is in fact the imposition. To impose ones belief that you and I should fund abortion with our tax dollars is an imposition.
If Kennedy wants to support abortion, that's his unfortunate choice, but to then claim that he is a faithful Catholic is a lie and a cause for public scandal, that's why the Bishop has corrected him, for the good of his soul, not as an attempt to influence democracy or build a theocracy. Kennedy is the one who is at fault because he claims a faith that he openly denounces, thereby possibly leading otherwise faithful Christians astray. Bishop Tobin knows what's truly more important here and it aint politics. He knows Who it is most important to please.
I hope Mr. Kennedy realizes the same, someday, and truly embraces the faith that he falsely lays claim to.
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