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"Investigation of this allegation indicated it occurred
in the state of Ohio, for which the FDLE has no jurisdiction."
Related Articles
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Rifqa Bary and the Xenos Cult
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Raising the Nazirites
Rifqa Bary is a 17 year old from Ohio who fled to Florida claiming that her father wanted to kill her for converting from Islam to Christianity. From the onset the story has been a microcosm of the larger clash of civilizations that some people perceive between Christianity and Islam.Two distinct narratives appeared which were equally implausible. One, that all Muslims are bloodthirsty savages who kill their children at the slightest provocation. Two, that a 17 year old girl from a devout Muslim family was brainwashed over Facebook by a Christian pastor in less than a month. Both ludicrous.
I, however, have a different take.
I am not an academic. I have not written any books. My argument is not based upon my credentials, but based upon the evidence I bring forth, which I leave to my dear readers to evaluate for themselves. The only thing I bring to the table is a methodology, which I apply to any other intellectual pursuit. It’s very simple. I never consider the meaning of any statement in isolation from its context and greater system of meaning. Yet this is precisely what both sides of this controversy are doing.
The Florida Department of Law Enforcement recently released the audio and transcript of an interview they did with Ms. Bary on August 24, 2009, just 14 days after her debut on YouTube. I strongly recommend the audio, because the text is somewhat incomplete, and a person's voice is always more nuanced than text. What I'd like to do is compare this information with the previous statements we have from Ms. Bary.
I want to begin by saying that this interview never should have taken place. In the first moments of the interview Ms. Bary asks for her lawyer to be present and the detectives present completely dismiss the request. I would not advise anyone to speak to a detective without an attorney present, even if you are not the suspect in the investigation.
Ms. Bary says that her parents are "radical Muslims". She has been consistent about this since her YouTube Testimony video last May, before the controversy. But, radical compared to what? In the larger narrative of a clash of civilization a "radical Muslim" is basically a terrorist. A militant. But what does Ms. Bary mean? When asked in the interview her description of a "radical Muslim" was a father who makes all his prayers on time and memorizes the Quran. A man who leaves in the middle of a business meeting to pray. A man who even prays on a newspaper in the park if the time arrives. I think most practicing Muslims would do this. I would do this.
Unconvinced, the detective pressed for more, to which she said, "There were people in Sri Lanka that they had affiliation with like the imams and prophets and that sort." I don't think I have to point out that there are no Muslim prophets in Sri Lanka. It's a ridiculous statement. What's interesting about Ms. Bary's description of a "radical Muslim" is that it exactly matches the Christians she surrounds herself with. She admits to praying in strange places at all hours. They also prioritize their relationship with God above their relationship with worldly affairs. She associates with people like Lou Engle who claims to be a prophet, who claims that God speaks to him directly with instructions about his movement. His movement, known as The Call, includes praying in public, namely National Mall in Washington DC. By every measure with which Ms. Bary identifies a radical, her new friends are radical Christians.
Her conversion story is inconsistent. In May she told YouTube that she told some girl from school that she was Christian before she even knew what it was, and then attended church with her because she wanted to fit in. Although a moving experience, she said it was months later that she accepted Jesus. In August she told the FDLE that she had already been praying to Jesus in secret at night before she ever attended church service. She said she went to church with her friend Angela Jin because she was rebelling against the repression of her family and she accepted Jesus immediately in the Church the first day. So which is it? Ms. Bary is a writer, and a talented story teller. As I writer myself I recognize what she is doing. She is crafting her story to appeal to her audience. She is incorporating, almost word for word, the language that the pastors she surrounds herself with use in their sermons. She will continue to make her conversion seem more miraculous, and her family seem more oppressive. She will continue to reinvent herself and her story to make her Testimony more convincing. Interesting that she told the FDLE that one of her favorite authors was Niccolo Machiavelli, whose philosophy is often summarized as, "the ends justify the means."
What about those Islamic classes week after week at the Noor Center? Never mind that she said she was taught by, "like a Rabbi person, I don't know. I guess they're called Imams." Which is just weird. In her May Testimony she said she didn't know what the consiquences would be for converting, but that they would be harsh. She might be disowned. In August she claims that she learned that apostasy was punishable by death in these classes. That she and her father always knew this.
In every Testimony she says she didn't know that she could pray before she found Jesus, so they didn't teach her that Muslims can pray from the heart same as Christians pray. And she says she didn't know what repentance was, so they didn't teach her that. She said that she didn't know that Jesus was a religious figure. So they must not have taught her that Muslims accept Jesus, peace be upon him, as the Messiah foretold in the Torah. She claims that there are Islamic prophets in Sri Lanka, so they didn't teach her that Muslims regard Muhammad, peace be upon him, as God's final prophet. She seems to be fundamentally ignorant about the most basic Islamic teachings that every child knows. Yet, we are told that she attended Islamic classes. Are we to believe that week after week they taught her nothing but some medieval law that in my experience most Muslims have never heard of? And yet, when the FDLE asked her to elaborate she did not quote teachings from her class at the Noor Center. She said, "I knew this threat was real, why because I had heard of cases like mine" and then she directs the investigators too... can you guess? ... Ok I'll tell you.
Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch and Pamela Geller's Atlas Shrugs!
Eureka! I think we've found it! Dear reader do you see? She didn't learn about Islam in her Islamic classes, if she even went to them. She learned about Islam from Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller. Who are right now wringing their hands and biting their nails waiting for something to break in the story so they can jump in the spotlight again. Of course she's terrified. She swallowed the lie from the sensationalist rantings of the anti-Muslim brain trust.
However, what has been consistent through everything Ms. Bary has said is that she was physically abused by her father. This part of her story has not changed. It is even somewhat corroborated in that her father has admitted to an emotional outburst when he lifted the laptop, although he insists he had no intention to hit her. I firmly believe in presumed innocence without proof of guilt, but this allegation is worthy of more investigation than the FDLE report. Perhaps now that she is back in the jurisdiction of Ohio, where the evidence, the witnesses and the allegations are, more revealing evidence can come to light. The Truth will out.
The only moral solution, whether she was abused or not, whether she is in danger or not, whether she is telling the truth or not, is her emancipation. Using the coercive power of the state to force her to return home against her will can not result in a healthy reconciliation. Only a professional psychologist who specializes in exit counseling, coupled with her emancipation can set her both mentally and physically free. Let her reconcile with her family in her own time on her own terms.
Rifqa's YouTube debut (8/10/2009)
The FDLE Interview (8/24/2009)
Rifqa's Affidavit (8/30/2009)
The Lou Engle interview (9/24/2009)
Rifqa Part II: The fake apostate Conspiracy
Rifqa Part III: the FDLE joke!
Rifqa Part IV: Raising the Nazirites
Comments
I wonder...are prospective Muslims converts (reverts, inshallah) told that the punishment for changing their mind is death? It doesn't seem like something you would advertise.
That's because it isn't true.
Apostacy doesn't mean leaving Islam.
An apostate is a traitor, a backstabber.
Someone who would either:
1) remain Muslim and destroy the Muslim community from the inside by espionage
2) Leave Islam, lie about the Muslims in order to drum up hatred and then lead an attack (physical or not) against Muslims.
Remove "Muslim" from the equation... think about if anyone did those things from inside any community or nation. Wouldn't the penalty be death for that?
According to US Federal law it is. Traitors are put to death.
Spies caught within the USA are frequently assasinated.
Same thing.
Great article. I'm so glad you are bringing all this to light.
Her parents were affiliated with Prophets, huh? This is insane, but it just proves that she is being puppetted and is very ill-informed.
jhimmi - No one told me, but I knew very little about Islam when I converted. I was drawn more by mystical experiences. I had barely even met a Muslim at the time. All my study of the actual religion came later.
But I don't recall anyone ever actually telling me this... not scholars or anyone. And I’ve sat with a handful of scholars. I think I heard it first at bbs:freetalklive:com when confronted by a forum poster with all the Jihad Watch rhetoric. He was outraged that I might claim to be Muslim and libertarian. So, I started looking into it, and found Spencer’s scholarship lacking.
I’ve occasionally meet people who believed this, but they are a dramatic minority. And always say it’s a law for a Khalifat, not for vigilante justice. Most Muslims, it seems have never heard of it.
BTW - is "jhimmi" pronounced "jimmy"? That's clever
You are indeed uneducated. The detectives do not have to stop questioning if the information they derive from the interview is not used against the person being interviewed. The information could be excluded from being used against her only, but was useful to the detectives in the investigation against the allegations of her parents.
Bob - That's not what I said. I said I advise people not to speak to detectives without their attorney. I didn't say anything about the law. But good job picking out the least significant part of the article.
Who do you think your kidding. This is just another example of the jehad of deception where muslims are instructed to use any deception necessary to defend Islam.
Please quit attempting to insult the intelligence of American Citizens with your propaganda. WE ARE NOT BUYING IT.
I suppose the two muslim girls slain by the father here in the metropolex deserved what they got too.
David - Are you saying that Ms. Bary didn't say these things? All the evidence I've presented are her own statements.
David - Previous murders committed by a disconnect third party is not relevant evidence. Implicit in that argument is that all Muslims are the same. That if one is guilty they must all be guilty. But justice is administered case by case.
Are you advocating a justice system where the conviction of one Muslim can be used as evidence in the trial of all future Muslims?
Maybe you'd like to share what you find so convincing about this case?
sorry, but i lived in Damascus and the punishment for christians leaving christianity is death and i dont think they advertised it.
"As I writer myself I recognize what she is doing. She is crafting her story to appeal to her audience."
She is a "writer" crafting a story? Well, she is a young woman who merely wants to change a religious identity that she didn't choose and no longer wants. Is that a crime against your god, which he or your prophet tells you to punish? Why? Is it a threat to you?
So, her choice has put her in the crosshairs of you and others who strive fi sabilillah, in this case with pen and tongue. Such a loving, noble, strong, intelligent, and moral way of life. This is not God.
You started your article out by mentionind that the interview shouldn't have taken place because she asked for an attorney, automatically setting a tone that the Police were corrupt or unethical... when that was not the case. Yes, I did read the content of your article...
Mr. Davi, please consider Logic 101. How can something (Islam) determine something to be, at the same time, both foundational and faulty? Islam (according to its book and prophet) describes itself as the necessary and obvious succession/culmination of the Bible, which it claims to be the revelation of Allah which reliably and truthfully tells of Islam/Mohammed.
Yet, simultaneously, it posits this foundation piece to be unreliable, asserting that the Scriptures were corrupted and lost, and there is no accurate version that exists. Therefore, the foundational revelation is unknowable, and it is unreliable. But again, it holds that all of this revelation -- its words, events, prophets, figures, concepts, laws and prophecies -- are the sound basis of the “eternal and perfect Quran” and its messenger, Mohammed.
You don’t have to be a great scholar to recognize that is a logical absurdity. It just doesn’t work.
So, Mr. Davi, what is the basis of Islam?
I was a skeptical myself, until I started to talk with several local muslims. Some were against the death penalty for anyone leaving islam, but the majority were in favor based on islamic scripture. I had no idea that there were that many who sanctioned the death penalty as a punishment for leaving islam.
I'm floored! This personal experience has forever changed my view on the religion. Still find it hard to believe.
Malcolm – The Bible is not Islam’s foundation. God is Islam’s foundation. The efficacy of the Bible is a matter of history, not creed. Islam’s roots in the Bible is a matter for secular academics, not believers. The Quran, being from the same source as all other revelations serves as a knowable document. The foundation of my belief is Fitra, the innate virtue of created beings. I have written about this if you care to comment there.
Gordon – That is truly disheartening. May I ask where you conducted this survey?
Death is prescribed for apostacy in Islam; in fact, apostacy is usually defined, in most sharia compliant Muslim countries, as doing anything 'un-Islamic'.
One Muslim posting a comment to the contrary does not change reality for hundreds of millions of Muslims.
The real force of the punishment dealth to apostates in sharia Muslim countries is that even if the state does not execute apostates, it will not fully prosecute 'devout' Muslims who take matters into their own hands.
There is not even one Verse in the Holy Quran that states anything about killing an apostate.
Rifqa is being fed wrong information to make the case more dramatic than it is.
If asking for God's forgiveness and praying five times a day for peace makes me a radical than I am proud to be a radical.
Islam demands death for anyone who leaves the faith. A father just murdered his daughter in arizona. The florida judge should never have returned the girl.
4:91 If they leave you and don't fight you, but offer you peace, then God has permitted no way for you to fight them.
There it's done. It's clear. Now can we stop talking about what Islam says. Islam doesn't exist. Moslems exist. It doesn't matter what any of you think Islam says. What matters is what Bary thinks Islam says. Is there anyone other than Davi who is willing to talk about the actual facts of the case?
Yosef,
Ms. Bary changed her religion years ago, and I have no objection. It is her story that keeps changing. If you disagree, please, tell me her story. In her words how did she find Jesus?
I don’t believe in punishing apostates, and I’ve written multiple articles articulating why. It seems many Christians want me to believe the contrary. I disagree.
Ms. Bary is no threat to me. It is these Christians who in the midst of threatening to lynch me insist that they love me. The social environment being created by this case has placed me and every Muslim in the crosshairs. The irrational passion being stirred brings them one step closer to initiating violence against me. And the precedents being set in this case could bring them one step closer to taking my children on no grounds but my faith.
I will expose falsehood, wherever I find it.
Jhimmi – I know of no Islamic government in the world. Maybe you can start by telling me what country you’re talking about.
If one Muslim posting a comment does not change the reality of for hundreds of millions of Muslims, than the opinion of hundreds of millions of Muslims does not change the reality of one Muslim family in Ohio. As I said, justice is administered case by case.
I asked a question that I feel is the fulcrum of this debate, and I’d like an answer from one of your Crusaders.
Are you advocating a justice system where the conviction of one Muslim can be used as evidence in the trial of all future Muslims?
I have a similar but related hypothesis.
Google
rifqa bary scams christian islamophobes eaazi
to read it.
I read the Guan twice, studied it twice. To tell you the truth, I could not make heads or tails out of it. (Mombo Jembo) It does not make sense. It seems backwards. I does say to smite the unbeliever a few times. So if someone changes their religion, smite them. If the girl wants to change her religion, let her. Leave her alone and move on. She is already 17 years old. What is the big deal? Let her go. Just like knocking the Berlin wall down, knock it down and let the people go!
Davi--I do appreciate the care that you have put into examining this case. It is indeed rare. What I am finding most dangerous about the Pam Geller and Robert Spencer's of the world is the influence that they are successful in wielding on the opinions of others who haven't even read their work to see how flimsy their logic often is. I do find it credible that Rifqa--not particularly well-educated in Islam by her parents--would believe them to be extreme, merely by virtue of being a teen-ager growing up in the fairly white-bread community of New Albany. Protestant parents who pray before a meal if eating in a restaurant, are probably the exception. Overt expressions of religiosity are down-played. To have a mother who wears hijab and does piecework for a bridal gown company and a father who would interrupt business to pray--these are extreme evidence of difference in a community that rewards sameness.
(continued)
It is not surprising that Rifqa would find ways to both fit in and to escape. It appears that through her computer she was able to find plentiful avenues of escape. She was able to construct a means by which to distance herself from her family. I don't trust either the motives or the wisdom of all the parties with whom she has been in contact--but you are right. To the degree to which her problem involves anything like "brainwashing," this was not a one month process and did not take place after she got to Florida. It is rather astonishing the number of high level right-wing folks she had apparently made friends with before she ever left Ohio.
But I have to disagree on one point. Emancipation is not an appropriate solution. I have seen too many foster kids "age out" at 18. They are generally in a sad and sorry state. Education incomplete, homeless, without health coverage and eligible for little to know social services. Rifqa still needs these things aqs well.
One more thought. I read the interview, but did not listen to it. I was not convinced of an experience of brutality. The details were sparse. She remembers her friend seeing bruises, but not what caused them. She remembers her friend telling a counselor--but not who the counselor was. She asserts the counselor called her parents--which would not be the legally prescribed response of a counselor suspicious of abuse. I don't oppose another investigation by the local authorities--but the responses of school personnel to date has certainly not been affirming of the notion that adults were apprised. It also bothers me that Pam Geller broke a story on the sliding down in the car while wearing hijab story--claiming it came from an anonymous friend of Rifqa's, who also claimed to have gone with Rifqa to the counselor's office--and yet FDLE couldn't get confirmation when interviewing friends. I think Stemberger had worked with Rifqa on her story and leaked it to Geller.
You want to know what irritates me off to no end? People who are not OF my religion trying to TELL me what MY religion teaches!
I don't care what one person says, I gave you the ISLAMIC concept of Apostate which is the consensus opinion of scholars throughout history and you dismiss it because some dude you heard of somewhere says otherwise.
Also, nobody here is saying she can't change her religion. That isn't he issue here. The issue here is that she can't seem to keep her story straight and almost everything she's saying about Islam is made-up mumbo-jumbo. Come on, she didn't even know for sure that the religious leader was called an imam?
Something doesn't add up here.. like that so-called former Muslim that the fascist Zionazi Pat Robertson was toting around through the 1990s that turned out to actually be an Arab Christian spreading lies about Islam.
Art... I don't know what you read... I've never heard of anything called the Guan. What religion is that from?
Ohioan and Saifullah - I appreciate your input. They are a welcome respite when it feels like I'm screaming in a blizzard. It's endlessly frustrating when the Spencerheads bemoan the lack of reasonable Muslim voices. Then when I provide one I'm told I'm incorrect about my religion. Then when I explain my belief, I'm told that I'm lying. You can't have civil discourse when they always assume you're lying. Ohioan - Do you have a solution? I support emancipation because by all natural measures she is an adult, and I am very wary of how state coercion is used to infantilize people. She has bitten the hand which feeds her, so let her feed herself. Adult choices, adult consequences. I am not convinced of the child abuse either, but it is a more reasonable thing to investigate.
Davi, you had asked my where I found evidence that a significant number of muslims in my community supported the death penalty for those who chose to leave islam. You may claim that my personal experience is not valid, so I will do better and quote the Pew Global Project in their research released August 13, 2009. Title: Pakistani Public Opinion, GROWING CONCERNS ABOUT EXTREMISM, CONTINUING DISCONTENT WITH U.S.:
"One of the ironies in the survey is the extent to which Pakistanis embrace some of the severe laws associated with the Taliban and al Qaeda, even as they reject Islamic extremism and these extremist groups. The new poll finds broad support for harsh punishments: 78% favor death for those who leave Islam; 80% favor whippings and cutting off hands for crimes like theft and robbery; and 83% favor stoning adulterers."
I am sure that you will recognize that all these harsh punishments are prescribed in widely accepted islamic teachings.
From Al Jazeera, Sept 07 2003:
"Jordan's Parliament has rejected the senate's recommendation to uphold a law providing stiffer penalties for men who kill women in so-called 'honour killings'."
"Islamists and conservatives said the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values."
Interesting article. I am a born again christian. I too have had questions concerning Rifqa's plight. I believe her father does have anger issues, but I question how a "fanatical" muslim would let his daughter be a cheerleader. I won't let mine! I believe the state owes her some sort of protection until she's 18....and then she can decide if she wants to attempt reconciliation. Again though, if he was fanatical in the sense that she and the media portray, I would think he would force her to study the Koran, pray 5x daily etc.
In any event, I would not want to be held responsible for her safety (even with the inconsistencies) and believe that caution should be the key here. She's in the U.S. and her lack of safety (real or imagined) should be the authorities utmost concern.
As a Christian, I must comment about my own. Jesus tells us NOT to judge one another. Instead many of us do not judge one's actions, which we should do, for fear that we'll be considered judgmental.
Gordon, let me ask you a question: Does prevailing Christian doctrine condone the slaughter of non-Christians? Does it demand the killing of abortionists, homosexuals and non-whites?
Many Christian groups say that it does. Not only in a historical sense, I'm talking about 20th and 21st century.
Davi and I will tell you straight up that there are no Muslim governments in existence anymore. The last one died when the Caliph was betrayed and the Ottoman Empire fell.
Shariah law, based on purely Qur'anic evidence and Hadith does not condone "honor killing" or the killing of those who leave Islam.
In the Qur'an it clearly prescribes lashing for adulterous persons, not execution. Just like in the Bible.
I have a rather large book of Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) that I would love to send to you; in it is a complete breakdown of Islamic law and application.
It is written by a very conservative scholar.
No honor killing, no death for leaving Islam.
"Apostate" has already been
Oops.. got cut off.
"Apostate" has already been defined well here.
The problem with contemporary media is a misrepresentation of WHAT Arabic terms really mean.
(Example: using the term "Madrassah" to indicate a training camp for militant concepts. The term simply means "School")
"Apostate" is more akin to "Traitor" "Backstabber" "Spy" and less like "convert"
The term is VERY specific. Anyone who understands Qur'anic Arabic can tell you clearly that Apostate clearly means one who has violated the trust of the community though actions which harm or destroy the community.
EVERY NATION on Earth holds the Death Penalty for traitors in the midst.
The Catholic Church Excommunicates people who they feel betray Church doctrine (anyone excommunicated may be killed without it being considered as murder according to my Priest buddy here).
Islam sanctions the penalty of execution for spies and traitors of the community. It only actually applies for an Islamic State. Not a family.
Fatwa on Honor Killing:
Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council:
“In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.
Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.”
Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:
“There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honor killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings."
I need to ammend my previous statement.. it sounds like I'm saying the term "Apostate" is an Arabic term.
Obviously it is not.
What I mean is the Arabic term that is referred to by "Apostate" or "Apostacy"
I got a bit jumbled when I was editing my comment to fit the character spaces here.
Interesting article. I am a born again christian. I too have had questions concerning Rifqa's plight. I believe her father does have anger issues, but I question how a "fanatical" muslim would let his daughter be a cheerleader. I won't let mine! I believe the state owes her some sort of protection until she's 18....and then she can decide if she wants to attempt reconciliation. Again though, if he was fanatical in the sense that she and the media portray, I would think he would force her to study the Koran, pray 5x daily etc.
In any event, I would not want to be held responsible for her safety (even with the inconsistencies) and believe that caution should be the key here. She's in the U.S. and her lack of safety (real or imagined) should be the authorities utmost concern.
As a Christian, I must comment about my own. Jesus tells us NOT to judge one another. Instead many of us do not judge one's actions, which we should do, for fear that we'll be considered judgmental.
I just saw another article quoting Rifqa's attorney. If true, this would seem more plausible to me. Here's a quote:
"Now on the sidelines, Stemberger says this is about more than Rifqa and her home life. "This case was not about the parents. It was about the mosque, the Noor Islamic Center," he said.
Early on, he introduced a 35-page memo that alleged the Center near her family's suburban Columbus home is involved in radical Islamic practices.
"We wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the fact that the mosque pressured the father to take care of it (her religious conversion).""
Since I can't produce a url, WBDO's local news has the full article.
Mr. Davi, please consider Logic 101. How can something (Islam) determine something to be, at the same time, both foundational and faulty? Islam (according to its book and prophet) describes itself as the necessary and obvious succession/culmination of the Bible, which it claims to be the revelation of Allah which reliably and truthfully tells of Islam/Mohammed.
Yet, simultaneously, it posits this foundation piece to be unreliable, asserting that the Scriptures were corrupted and lost, and there is no accurate version that exists. Therefore, the foundational revelation is unknowable, and it is unreliable. But again, it holds that all of this revelation -- its words, events, prophets, figures, concepts, laws and prophecies -- are the sound basis of the “eternal and perfect Quran” and its messenger, Mohammed.
You don’t have to be a great scholar to recognize that is a logical absurdity. It just doesn’t work.
So, Mr. Davi, what is the basis of Islam?
Which Christian sects mandate death to abortionists, gays and homosexuals? No Christian sects do this, it would directly contradict Jesus' words and actions. Anyone who condones Sharia Law is admitting Islam is a political ideology as well as a religion, meaning apostates are still 'traitors'.
Islam’s death penalty for apostates is a dead letter if no one cares or is able to enforce it, but it is deeply rooted within Islam. Qur’an sura 4:89 speaks of those who have embraced Islam and then turned “renegade,” directing Muslims to “seize them and slay them wherever ye find them.” Muhammad said, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” (Bukhari, vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57). This is a universal principle in Islamic law.
All schools of Islamic jurisprudence teach this. If you wish to reject Bukhari in particular, or Sharia Law in general, that's well and good, but you are then at odds with the vast majority of reputable Islamic scholars.
Hey Mal! Consider remedial math. 1 + 1 + 1 doesn't not equal 1.
So, Mal, how many gods do you worship?
Why do Muslims say Muhammed is 'just a man', but then say he is 'perfect', and worthy of emulation? Is he just a man, or was he 'perfect'? A resolution of this conflict might go a long way to making Islam so violent and barbaric; Muhammed was a man. He was not perfect. He had faults. Please don't emulate him.
Joe! It ain't 'bout the parents... ain't 'bout the mosk. We gotta take away kids from all them Mozlums! They believe in the Koran and there all crazy wanna kill um. It's for the children.
Gordon,
I wasn’t seeking to discredit you. I know this mentality exists, and I was trying to get some perspective on your experience. Where it was, how many people you talked it. Where were they from? It’s relevant to me. I’ll look into the Pew report, but that’s too much data to digest quickly. Because I’d have the same questions. Where was the survey conducted? How many were asked? I know rural parts of Pakistan where people identify as Muslim but they don’t even know the Shahada.
Your comment on Jordan only further solidifies my belief that there is no Islamic Government anywhere.
But these things are not relevant to this case unless your advocating a justice system where the guilt of one Muslims is evidence against every other Muslim.
I don’t believe these things, but these people would use these arguments against me if I was falsely accused.
I would define an Islamic government whose constitution is based on Sharia Law. Article 3 of the Afghan constitution, for instance states, "no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam."
Joe,
Thank you for your fair minded comment. It’s heartening for me to know that there are Christians with whom reasonable dialog is possible.
I read the 35 page memo which I found sensationalist. A mosque is an inanimate object, and the founder it focuses on has been in Bahrain for quite some time. If there are allegations to be made they should be made against specific people and we should put them on trial. They shouldn’t accuse the Noor Center’s 10,000 members in the trial of a man Stemberger now says it’s not about.
We can’t take away all their kids because we don't like their speakers.
Malcolm,
I already answered this question. The Bible is not the foundation of Islam. God is Islam’s foundation. Islam’s roots in the Bible is a matter for secular academics, not believers. The Quran itself is a reliable text. I did take philosophy and critical thinking at the college level. I read Socrates and learned the logical fallacies. I suggest you read about the straw man fallacy.
I am considering a policy of deleting comments I discover to be cut and paste from other forums. What do people think? I don’t want to discourage dialog, but neither do I want to provide a den for trolls.
Jhimmi,
You're using the deficient methodology I am speaking about, of taking isolated statements without regard for the greater system of meaning.
You quote 4:89, but ignore the verses immediately after.
-90- Except those who join a people with whom you have a treaty of peace, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you… 91-Therefore if they withdraw from you, but fight you not, and offer you peace, then God has opened no way for you to fight them.
This deficient methodology is only used by those who wish to stir animosity that is not supported by the evidence. I’m not saying this is you. But it is Robert Spencer and others. I hope you will seek more trustworthy guidance.
I've written two articles about apostasy, I suggest you start there.
Jhimmi – You don’t get to define an Islamic state. Please read day seven of my Islamic Retreat series (Islam and it’s political order). The essential attribute of an Islamic state is that sovereignty belongs to God and not the state. It’s constitution is only three things, a mutual protection pact, a non aggression pact, and a system of arbitration between the Muslim unit of society and its non Muslim units. The Muslim segment is subject to Sharia (Arabic for “Law”) and organized under a Caliph. But non Muslims are not subject to Islamic law. They are subject to the laws of their unit of society, which is self determined.
Afghanistan may surround itself with the paraphernalia of an Islamic state, but its constitution claims sovereignty for the state, which contradicts that statement. There is no Caliph, therefore there is no Islamic state anywhere. And any rightly guided Caliph would know that this is not how Islamic law is implemented.
Well done, Davi. Good article. I can't find a point in it that I disagree with, because most of the points you make are simply facts.
I have come up with a novel appraoch in dealing with this case. Lets all agree that when Rifqa used the word "radical" she meant it the way the west coast surfers of the late 80s and 90s used it. Traditionally this term was preceded by "surfs up" while being followed by "cowabunga" and/or "dude" . This will also explain her move to Florida. She went where the tide took her.
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