His Holiness Hadhrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad returned to London earlier this week. Today in the Friday sermon he spoke about his recent European tour. He visited France, Spain, Italy and Switzerland. His tour proved to be very successful all around. On his way from Italy to Switzerland he visited the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, northern Italy to view the Turin Shroud.
Significance of the Turin Shroud:
According to Wikipedia, "Some contend that the shroud is the cloth placed on the body of Jesus Christ at the time of his burial, and that the face image is the Holy Face of Jesus. Others contend that the artifact postdates the Crucifixion of Jesus by more than a millennium. Both sides of the argument use science and historical documents to make their case.The image on the shroud is much clearer in black-and-white negative than in its natural sepia color. The striking negative image was first observed on the evening of May 28, 1898, on the reverse photographic plate of amateur photographer Secondo Pia, who was allowed to photograph it while it was being exhibited in the Turin Cathedral. The Catholic Church has neither formally endorsed nor rejected the shroud, but in 1958 Pope Pius XII approved of the image in association with the Roman Catholic devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus."
His Holiness remained in the church for quite sometime. He viewed the shroud closely and spoke to the administrators of the exhibition and the researchers working in the Church. He explained the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community's point of view to them. He elucidated the events of the Crucifixion of Jesus. He said that it could very well be the cloth in which Prophet Jesus was wrapped after crucifixion but it definitely is not the cloth in which he passed away. According to Ahmadiyya Muslim's viewpoint, Prophet Jesus escaped the crucifixion, spent a few days with his apostles who cured him with a special ointment and then he traveled to India. He died in Kashmir, India, where his tomb is located. This theory was presented in a book called "Jesus in India" by the Promised Messiah Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1899. The Turin shroud only strengthens the view point of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. According to Mr. Faber-Kaiser, a scholar of comparative religion:
...After seven years of investigations concerning the shroud that covered (Christ's) body, many scientists have come to the conclusion that Jesus was buried alive. The experts affirm that the Holy Shroud preserved in Turin lay on a crucified body that suffered exactly the same passion as Jesus, but state that this person did not die on the cross, but was buried while still alive. The twenty-eight bloodstains on the shroud prove this. The investigators assure us that a corpse wrapped in a shroud could not bleed in that manner. Jesus was buried alive, unless a second Jesus existed, and he was made to suffer the same agony. (Jesus Died in Kashmir - Published in 1976).
Some people rejects the idea of Turin Shroud to belong to Jesus. Turin Shroud as well as Tomb of Jesus have both become controversial issues.
The shroud of Turin is expected to be viewed by 2 million people including Pope Benedict XVI.
Comments
This is great that a Khalifa have seen this Turin Shroud. Because of him, we all and many ppl all around the world know about this Shroud.May this be the evidence for the whole world that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross and he survived.
I find the Turin Shroud concept so interesting. SubhanAllah, we may never ever know!
Your followers of an imposter, read what you can get your hands on and youll see.
As far as i have been able to find, scientists accept that the man wrapped in the shroud was dead.
This included the body being in a state of rigor mortis and there being a separation of serum from the blood that happens after death.
Also the Jewish Scientist Barry Schwartz mentions that the idea that there is no post mortem blood flow is incorrect which has been shown with contemporary dead bodies from traffic accidents in morgues continuing to bleed after death.
He also mentions several scientists who testify to these signs of death on the shroud.
In the middle of child abuse controversary, Catholics are desperately finding ways to divert world's attention. Keep it up Pope Benedict XVI
In the middle of child abuse controversary, Catholics are desperately finding ways to divert world's attention. Keep it up Pope Benedict XVI
@ abcus - Actually your statement further proves that Jesus was alive. The reason why people still bleed after major traffic accidents is because their bones are broken and massive blood vessels are ripped apart, causing intense internal bleeding that cannot be stopped. Ask any trauma physician in an objective and non-leading manner and he will confirm this.
But, the Bible tells us most particularly that Jesus' bones were spared while those of the thieves were broken. Jesus never suffered from the type of injury people experience in a massive traffic accident. On the contrary, when he was stabbed with the spear, John tells us that blood and water suddenly flows out. This is only possible if the heart is beating and Jesus is alive.
The fact that his disciples then put medicine on his wounds is a dead give away; dead people don't need medicine.
Anyway, the science is clear. Jesus could not possibly have died that day. The Shroud is just another proof of it.
WisdomofQ, The examinatation of the corpse mentioned by Schwartz using time-lapse photography clearly showed a slow seepage of blood from multiple exit wounds after death. This happened over a period of some hours after the body was placed in the morgue. Broken bones have nothing to do with the seeping of blood from a body after death. Any seeping from busted blood vessels would be a local event and not cause bleeding from multiple exit wounds over the entire body. Also, in order to breath on the cross, a man must continually lift himself up to expand the chest cavity otherwise he will die by suffocation (asphixiation). Roman guards at a crucifixion can easily see if the rib cage of a naked crucified man is still moving or has stopped.
After death by asphixiation (from which a crucified man would die of) there would be a build up of pleural fluid in the lungs. A spear through the side (as indicated by the shroud) would first release this fluid from the lungs and then pierce the right
After death by asphixiation (from which a crucified man would die of) there would be a build up of pleural fluid in the lungs. A spear through the side (as indicated by the shroud) would first release this fluid from the lungs and then pierce the right ventricle of the heart to release blood - hence the blood and water description in John's Gospel and the blood and pleural fluid found on the shroud. Also, the idea that a spear can go through the lungs and heart of an unconscious man and not cause death is not really credible.
Regards.
@ abucs: The Shroud demonstrates that the location of the spear makes it impossible that the spear punctured the heart or lungs of Jesus. This is not opinion, this is medical and physiological fact. Unless Jesus' heart was in a location different than every human being in history, his heart was spared.
Furthermore, you must know that asphyxiation takes more than just 3-4 hours, the amount of time Jesus, a man in his prime at 33, was on the cross. This is further evidenced by the fact that the theives with him were still alive. Don't fall into the Gospel of Mel Gibson's hollywood portrayal of Jesus' flogging pre-cross. The flogging was meant as a humiliation, not a means of death.
The centurions were soldiers, not doctors. The fact that Pontius "marveled" that "What, is he dead already?" should indicate that even in 3 hours, no one dies.
Nicodemas, a physician, still put medicine on the wounds of a "dead" person. Why would a doctor do such a thing?
My information on the location on the shroud side wound regarding the heart is from the scientists that studied the shroud. A centurian standing lower than the victim would place the spear between the ribs upwards into the heart.
Because breathing on a cross is an extremely laboured process, by raising yourself up in order to take a breath, no-one including experienced centurians would fail to have seen this.
Regarding Nicodemus - you don't treat a person who is still alive by wrapping him in a shroud and putting him in a tomb.
Regards.
@ Abucs: In order for a spear to puncture the right side (from where it allegedly did) and shear the pericardium, it will have to go through the liver first. Forget about the pericardium, shearing it is nothing compared to the knife wound to the liver. No organ bleeds like the liver.
And if the implication was that a pericardial wound could kill you, that's not necessarily likely at all. Doctors leave pericardium open after certain procedures. No big deal.
Also, the mongo spear Catholics claim pierced doesn't match the Shroud in size either. So either the spear is a fake or the shroud.
Finally, asphyxiation takes more than 3 hours. I can't stress this enough. As evidenced by the fact that the thieves were still alive. People would b on the cross for 24-72 hours and it was common they hadn't suffocated yet. Jesus had a small step to push himself up with as well so it is impossible that in only 3 hours he suffocated. Sheerly impossible.
@ Abucs: Oh, and the Nicodemus thing. Yes, you do wrap the body in a shroud and pack medicine (Luke says up to 100 pounds of ointments) if you are a doctor, your patient needs medical attention, and you're trying to hide the fact that Jesus is still alive because you don't want them to really kill him this time. Every action taken points to the fact that Jesus was trying to hide his death.
Jews don't put medicine on their "dead". They wash the body with water and bury it. The enemies of Jesus knew he talked about escaping which is why the ordered 2 guards in front of the stone. Jesus himself knew they were after him which is why he disguised himself as a gardener. What a better time to say "you killed me but i'm back! I've conquered death!" Alas, he never did this. He hungered, feared, and left the area asap.
All the biblical and scientific evidence demonstrates that whoever was in that Shroud, certainly did not die. What a beautiful Sign from on High.
OK, last post for me.
"Catholics" don't claim anything about any spear. If "someone" does then that is outside my knowledge. I haven't commented about a type of spear nor have i commented about any movie. You are the only one presuming this.
The scientific reports i have read say nothing about a liver being pierced by a spear thrust upwards. They do speak about the upward trajectory hitting the lung and the heart. This coresponds the the material that was found on the shroud as mentioned.
Crucifixion victims die of asphyxiation because after so many hours on the cross they are no longer able to raise themselves up to take a breath. The more severely you have been beaten and gone without sleep the quicker you will tire on the cross and no longer be able to raise yourself up. Jesus was scourged by Romans and beaten by Jews and carried his cross up the hill of Calvery. The whipping was supposed to be the only punishment according to the readings until the leaders protested.
This treatment is clearly more than a usual crucifixion. The point still remains. You die of asphyxiation because of the nails through the wrists and feet causing unbearable pain and dehydration and back spasms and all of this while you are constantly lifting yourself up for breathing. Eventually you tire and die.
You have to lift yourself up to breathe on the cross. This cannot be missed by spectators, the people who wanted to see him dead or the people whose job it is to execute the prisoners. you cannot just pass out and breathe shallowly. It is a physical effort to lift yourself.
If you do not lift yourself up - you die of asphyxiation.
And a soldiers job who has the responsibility of killing someone with a spear thrust will aim for the heart. He will not aim for some place that will not be fatal.
The very fact we are looking at a shroud shows the people who took him down from the cross also knew he was dead.
You would not also have his apostles travelling out all over the world, risking their own lives everywhere they went, being thrown into jail and executed because Jesus happened to somehow cling onto live and be a cripple for the rest of his life and was carried away by someone in India somewhere.
Nails through the wrists and ankles would leave a man a cripple for the rest of his life and not inspire such bravery, certitude and confidence that we saw in Jesus' followers. With respect, i do not think your arguement make sense.The guy in the shroud was dead. If it belonged to Jesus, then Jesus was humanly dead. I have not read one scientist who has physically examined the shroud that says the man was still alive. I have read respected people who have looked at photoes and suggested the man was not dead, but i have not found that these claims are credible or agree with the scientists who have studied it in person and for a number of years.
And i leave the last word to you.
Regards.
@ Abucs: Like I said, don't fall for the gospel of Mel. The scourging was a light scourging. As was tradition. This was supposed to be a humiliation to him. If they wanted him dead quickly, the guillatine was available. Furthermore, Simon helped him carry his cross. If you don't think Catholics talk about a spear, google Lance of Destiny.
I respectfully disagree that a man with nails through his wrists and feet would be crippled for life. The Bible itself tells us that he traveled on foot to Galilee. Jesus tells the doubting Thomas to even put his fingers through Jesus' wounds.
Good sir you must know that asphyxiation takes many hours. Not three. Again, this is evidenced by the fact that the thieves were still very much alive.
The fact that his disciples risked their lives is only a testament to the truth of Jesus and has nothing to do with him surviving or not surviving the crucifixion.
@ Abucs: If there is one thing I've learned from our discourse is that you have a good heart and a good soul. I can always appreciate the opportunity to exchange ideas with a person of a different perspective, and do so in a respectful manner.
God bless you and always keep you under His Grace.
Ahmadiyya are not Muslims. This is such a joke.
@Shadhill - I wasn't aware you were God? As far as my understanding of Islam goes, the Prophet (sa) was even forbidden from determining who is and is not a Muslim. So surely, if you are calling Ahmadiyya Muslims non Muslim, you must consider yourself God.
If this is the case, then, my friend, you have some things you need to figure out. Allah (the Real and Only) Bless you.
I am just soooo enthralled by the idea that this cloth was preserved over history. There has to be a reason; I mean the church was able to salvage it even after that fire in 1997! And I think that it was saved twice before from a fire as well.
Anyways, I believe that the Pope will be visiting the shroud of Turin today, the 10th of May.
Good artcile sister!
WisdomIQ,
The purpose of crucifixion is not quick death, but a very painful public death. The guillotine was not yet available (invented by the French during the 1790s). According to Dr. Frederick T. Zugibe (for info see www.crucifixion-shroud.com/bio.htm), the crucified did not die of asphyxiation (discussion at www.crucifixion-shroud.com/Barbet.htm), but of shock, and that the legs of the crucified were broken to compound this shock and to leave any survivors vulnerable to be eaten by wild animals.
The Bible does not tell us that Jesus travelled 'by foot' to the Galille after the crucifixion, it merely states that he met the disciples there.
The mixture of myrrh and aloes said to have been brought by Nicodemus (John 19:39) would be used as a sort of perfume to mask the odor of corruption. Myrrh and aloes were used BOTH as medicine AND as a perfume, so their usage is not predicated on the person being alive.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
@ BobGriffen - You said it yourself, a slow death; i.e. impossible to happen in 3 hours, as evidenced that the theives were very much alive.
No Guillotine? What about hanging, stoning, axing - all were available. They hung Jesus specifically to prove he was a false Messiah per Deut.21:23
Asphyxiation or shock, whatever your flavor - neither happened in just 3 hours.
However Jesus got to Galilee is irrelevant. He still walked out of the tomb just fine, at least as the Bible tells us.
What smell of corruption do you speak of? Are you speaking of body decay? The Jews have NEVER put mhyrrs and aloes and ointments on their dead. They simply wash the body and bury it, simple as that. Nicodemus, a physician, is putting medicine on the wounds of a person - how much more clear can it get?
And you're suggesting that Jesus can conquer death but can't stop from decaying? Really? Well, by that logic, the brain decays beyond repair after 10 minutes.
He was clearly alive go
WisdomofQ, what everyone has been trying to tell you is that it is a fact that Jesus did die. Period.
First, Jesus was struck several times. This is shown on the Shroud as being punched in the cheeks and a swollen eye.
Using the Shroud of Turin as a model clearly shows deep, gouging scourge marks on the arms (both sides), on the chest, on the back, buttocks, as well as both front and back of his legs. In the words of Ray Downing, "they beat this man to hell". There was excessive blood loss as the Romans used whips with sharp bits on them that would tear chunks of skin.
The crucifix was nailed to the Sciatic nerves of the legs/feet, permanently damaging them. If your nerves are damaged, there was no "cure" and Jesus could not just wake up and walk, even after 3 days in a tomb resting.
Also, stabbing a spear anywhere into the torso combined with the stress of scourging then crucifixion would be too much stress on any body.
Finally, the serious wounds inflicted would have created a perfect environment for infection. Even if Jesus survived, the infection would have killed him.
Believing the Shroud is that of Jesus, if he just "woke" up instead of being resurrected, the image would have never been reproduced.
Looks like no matter what anyone tells you, you are determined to believe Jesus never died, let alone rose from the dead. The death and resurrection is the Good News of the Gospels, which you do not understand or believe.
You also appear to know nothing about quantum physics, E=MCsquared, and how there are more than 11 dimensions in the universe which human beings cannot sense without scientific experiments. That means the mass of Jesus' dead body could have been hit with radioactive energy that could make his body come back to life again. The Shroud clearly shows an imprint by heat and light, evidence of radiation.
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