A common anti-Mormon tactic is to bias the minds of a sincere, curious individual by using emotionally charged arguments. The purpose is to bypass reason and cause the person to react on the basis of superstition, peer pressure, or avoidance of potential embarrassment.
An example of such an argument might be a question related to corporal punishment. If I asked a Christian mother if she believed in spanking as an option when disciplining a child, the likely answer would be affirmative. If I asked her whether she beat her children to discipline them, her immediate response would be "No!" The emotional image of beating a child is so abhorrent that one recoils in horror. One's emotional reaction is predictable. By phrasing the question a certain way, I can immediately bypass reason and obtain an emotional reaction to bias your response.
APPEALING TO THE EMOTIONS, NOT TO REASON
A common attack used to bias the curious against further investigation of Mormon beliefs is the charge that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. This creates an immediate, negative reaction. Would you want to have your family told that you are investigating the possibility of associating with a church that teaches such a thing? This accusation immediately harrows up such negatives that many sincere people simply "turn off" their curiosity and return to the reassurance of familiarity.
These are the souls of whom Jesus spoke, in the Parable of the Sower in Mark chapter 4:17, who receive the word with gladness "And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended." They fall away because they have "no root." The newness of their faith and lack of understanding make them vulnerable to such attacks. They don't have the knowledge to defend those things they have received in faith.
SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES
If you will search the scriptures and what they teach about our nature and the nature of Christ and Satan, you will learn the truth of our relationships. Before the world was created, we lived in a premortal existence as spirits. Of Jesus Christ it was written:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (Proverbs 8:22-31, italics added)
This passage tells us of the premortal existence of Jesus, but please take note of last sentence. His delights were with the sons of men. Before this earth was created, we lived with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. It was in this premortal state that we received certain missions that we were to accomplish during our mortal probation on earth. We have the record of one such mortal foreordained to be a prophet during his life:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)
Like Jeremiah, the Lord knew each of us. There was one among us, who stood preeminent above all: Jesus Christ. He has many titles. One of them is "The Firstborn." Of Jesus' status as Firstborn, Paul wrote:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (Colossians 1:13-19, italics added)
Mormons literally believe Paul's testimony in the Bible. Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of every creature. He is the preeminent Spirit of all spiritual beings created by God. God is the Father of all. As Jesus told Mary when she beheld the resurrected Lord:
...but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
The Father of Jesus is our Father. His God is our God. As God is our Father, we are brothers and sisters. Thus Jesus is the Firstborn of us all. He is our Elder Brother. As the passage above indicates, he is also the Creator of the earth. Acting always in accordance with the Father's will, Jesus Christ created the earth and the physical universe around us.
John testifies, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3) Paul again confirms that God "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:2)
We've now read about Jesus' role as the Firstborn and Creator. Another role or title that he alone bears is "Only Begotten." (See John 1:14-18, 3:16-18) Of all the spirits that God the Father created, there is only one whom he created physically. In a miraculous manner, beyond mortal man's comprehension, Jesus Christ condescended to become flesh and blood like the rest of us.
He possessed all the qualities and powers of Divinity as a mortal man and lived a sinless life. Yet he was subject to all the pains and suffering of physical existence. He suffered as none ever has or ever will, both in Gethsemane and on the cross, to atone for the sins of all mankind. Rising from the tomb after three days, he came forth as a resurrected being. This gives him another title, Firstborn from the dead. (Colossians 1:18)
Another title which Christ uses to describe himself is the Bright and Morning Star.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Revelation 22:16)
To Job, the Lord inquired:
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7, italics added)
This group of premortal spirits who are distinguished by the title morning stars may have been a chosen group of spirits, of whom Jesus was the Eldest and Most Preeminent. The scriptures say little else of them. However, there is one other being who bears a similar title. That being is Lucifer or Satan, who is called Son of the Morning.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)
Lucifer's title here as son of the morning is rendered in Hebrew as haylel ben shachar = Shining One, son of Dawn. Lucifer sought to usurp the glory and authority of God the Father, for which he was rejected and cast out of heaven. Of this event, Jesus was witness (Luke 10:18). John the Revelator also beheld Lucifer's downfall as he wrote:
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...
...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:3-9)
Origen of Alexandria (185-251 A.D.) is the first Christian writer to link the two. After quoting this passage from Isaiah, Origen wrote, "Evidently by these words is he [Satan] shown to have fallen from heaven, who formerly was Lucifer, and who used to arise in the morning (Peri Archon - On First Things 1.5.5)." That is to say, Lucifer was the angelic title of Satan before his fall from heaven. Augustine also has a similar idea, and from there it passes into medieval Christianity.
As these Bible passages indicate, there was a conflict or "war in heaven." Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven, down to the earth. One third of the "stars," God's spirit children, followed Lucifer to this fate. Their doom was bitter. Once cast out of heaven, they would never be born into mortal bodies. Thus, they would never be resurrected and inherit the glory promised to those who remained faithful to God the Father and his Christ.
As a son of the morning, Lucifer can appear as an angel of light. The name Satan means "one who opposes." Lucifer opposes God, Christ, the Plan of Salvation, and the Church. He and his disembodied spirits seek to possess and control the bodies of mortals when they have the opportunity. When Jesus cast out a Legion of demons from a possessed person, it is some these lost souls whom he banished into a herd of swine.
We see that Lucifer, before he became Satan, was a spirit in God's presence, among us in the premortal world. God created him and God is his Father in the same sense that God is our Father. Satan rebelled and was cast out for his rebellion. Another name for him is Perdition, meaning "lost."
There are individuals who have claimed that the sacred temple rites of Latter-day Saints contain some secret teaching that describes Satan as holding a position of honor. This is untrue. I may not discuss my knowledge of these sacred ordinances, but I wish to refer you to the words of Jesus Christ himself. In the hours before his betrayal, trial, and crucifixion, Jesus said to his disciples:
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. (John 14:30, italics added)
In this passage, Jesus describes Satan as the prince of this world, or having power over the fallen earth. Since the moment Adam and Eve were cast from Eden, mankind and the earth had been under the dominion of sin and death. When one abides in sin, one abides under Satan's authority. Jesus, being sinless, had no fear of Satan and could not come under his power unless he were to submit himself to it.
This is exactly what Jesus did. He surrendered himself as the sacrificial Lamb of God, to take upon himself the eternal punishment for all of our sins. Jesus seized the keys of death and hell from Satan's power and offers us mercy and forgiveness on the condition of sincere repentance. Jesus ransoms us from the dominion of Satan.
In the symbolic sense, Christ is the God of Eden, a paradise where sin and death have no power. His atonement redeems us and brings us back to this state. Symbolically, Satan is the lord of the fallen earth where unrighteousness and death are the predominant conditions. It is in this sense that Satan holds dominion over the world at present. He exercises power, he causes hatred, strife, wars, plagues, racism, disloyalty, dishonesty, betrayal, calumny, and distress. Paul refers to Satan as “the prince of power of the air” in Ephesians 2:2.
The Book of Mormon describes the fall of Satan thus:
And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. (2 Nephi 2:17)
CONCLUSION
As God is the Father of all spirits, all of us are brothers and sisters. That means that Lucifer is a spirit child of God the Father. He was once one of us. He had free will like us. He could choose between good and evil. He defied his Father and rejected Jesus Christ as his Redeemer. His fate might have been otherwise, had he not rebelled against our Father in Heaven.
It is in this sense, that we are all spirit children of God, that Jesus and Lucifer would be considered brothers. This does not mean there is any acceptance or kinship beyond that point. Satan is the opponent of all who rejected him and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Jesus Christ is the Firstborn, the Only Begotten in the flesh, and the Savior and Redeemer of the world. Only in and through Jesus Christ can anyone find salvation.
Latter-day Saints worship God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. We stand by the testimony of James, when he wrote:
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)
The ancient prophet Mormon said:
For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. (Moroni 7:11-17)
Those who would impugn to us some sinister secret, because of our belief in the scriptures I cited above, act from ill will and “judge that which is good to be of the devil.”
Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." A good tree can not bring forth evil fruits. This is an unmistakable trait. Compare the fruits (the works) of the Church with the darkness of the hostile lies told against Latter-day Saints and judge for yourself who possesses the spirit of truth or the spirit of error.
Comments
I like the clarity. Thank you.
Good article
Well written. I think you clarified the relationship between Satan the Savior beautifully. Hopefully those not of your faith will be able to discern the subtlety that anti-mormons use to confuse sincere seekers of truth.
You want fruits? Vitually every major polygamous group active today (There are many) can be traced directly to Joseph Smith. Racism, Homophobia, Depression, Suicide. Man those are some lovely fruits from good ole Joe. But we don't want to talk about that stuff, lets talk about the good he did like the Kirtland bank...oh wait that sucked too. How about his translation of those Papyri! Hmm, failed pretty bad there too huh? Lets see...fruit fruit, well he did Prophesy Christ would return in the 1890's. Darn looks like he missed that one too. You can't see the fruit for the trees Greg. You see what you want to see because you have invested too much time and money to ever see anything different. Go ahead and serve a God that once demanded women share their husbands and that Black people were second class or worse. Guess what? There will be a revelation eventually allowing Gays to hold the priesthood. How do I know? He gave in to social pressure twice before, he will again.
So what's this about the papyrii translation being wrong? I thought the guy who sold him the mummies confirmed that the translation was correct.
Great article! It's interesting people like Fruity can't deny what the scriptures say, so they try to deceive with lies.
Nice article Greg. Thanks.
Fruity, did you miss the point of the article? He said that people use emotionally charged language to scare people from reason. Please stop using hate as a way to control people. Make an argument based on reason and then back up with scripture.
Great article Brother West -
Fuity... Your tactics are tired.
And by the way, homosexual members of the Church already can hold the Priesthood and they can enter the temple too as long as they do not act on their homosexual tendencies.
Fruity -
I believe in your right to hate, but if you decide to hate me, hate me for who I am, not for who I am not. At least have the courage to accurately represent who I am and what I believe. Otherwise you are breaking some of the most fundamental commandments, especially bearing witness against your neighbor. Something the tabloids have mastered, but apparently do not have a monopoly on.
BTW - for answers to these old misrepresentations and others , check out fairwiki. You can google it.
Great article! When you realize that Satan was once one of us, but after his fall became jealous and hates us now to no end because he could have had what we have, but now can't, it all makes sense.
Interesting. The tactic of creating an emotionally charged reaction gets used all too often in politics as well. It stands to reason that, if Mormons are so bad, people against them would simply say "Go to Mormon churches (or books or websites or whatever) and you'll see how bad they are." Instead, it seems the tactic is to do all they can to get people not to go to the source--as if they're really not so bad if you actually talk to them so make sure no one does.
I like this article alot. It has backbone to every thing you said. Its sad how people will still argue what we are saying is wrong. . Very nice article!!
Statement by Church from newsroom.lds.org :
Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel, diametrically opposite from Christ in every attribute. As the prophet Isaiah wrote, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”
The Apostle Paul wrote that God is the Father of all. This means that all intelligent beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ alone, however, is the only begotten Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind.
Jesus Christ represents all that is good, true, virtuous, merciful, just and godly.
Lucifer is the adversary of everything that Christ stands for. He embodies all that is evil, false, immoral, and devoid of any trace of goodness or divine light. He is the enemy of God and of every human being who seeks to follow Christ.
You conveniently forgot to insert that Jesus Christ is God, not a creation as John 1:1 PLAINLY STATED and Phillipians 2:6 and maNY OTHER SCRIPTURES. You mormons truly believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. The book of Mormon is a counterfeit copy of the real Book!!!
It is absurd to use the premise that we need to use "reason" and not emotion to validate mormonism. There is no reason involved. If members and investigators took a unbiased reasoned look at the history of Mo'ism, it would be obvious that there are major holes in the "story". The fact is that the tenets of mo'ism are accepted on faith and affirmed by psychological response. Once conditioned to the "truth", (even though it is based on only the "milk"), a member finds it nearly impossible to question the "meat" no matter how ludicrous it may be when held to a logical standard. Multiple First vision stories, incorrectly translated Book of Abraham papyrus, invalid prophecies, secret polygamy (to previously married women, in contradiction of the D&C) The list is very long. But, <sigh>, most mormons will just label it "anti" and refuse to investigate the facts. THAT is an emotional response, not a reasoned one. Google can point you to the facts, if only you are willing to look.
Growing up Mormon in northern Nevada I was taught in Sunday School that Jesus and Satan were indeed brothers. Perhaps another "doctrine" the church has changed because it didn't draw in the converts?
They are very clear about this point; Jesus and Satan are brothers. Here it is, direct from the online version of Mormon 'Gospel Principles':
www(dot)lds(.dot)org(slash)library(slash)display(slash)0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html
>We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27).
>Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins...
>Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me...
The irony of your posts is almost comical. Just as the author finishes talking about the use of emotionally charged language to distort the views of others, you almost immediately launch into a string of just such comments. Instead of taking a thoughtful and thorough look at a single issue, you fly off the handle, apparently hoping to influence the uninformed simply by the volume of emotionally charged vomit that you can produce. I am not saying that the items you bring up are not worthy of discussion, but you have lost serious credibility in the way you have presented them. You might want to start by taking some time to look at the issue that the author is actually trying to discuss (Satan and Jesus being 'brothers') and make a detailed, logical, and emotionally uncharged comment on that.
The author is clearly not attempting to prove the existence of God. He is responding to a specific, emotionally-charged phrase that is sometimes used by those who oppose the Mormon Church. The audience for the emotionally-charged phrase is obviously those who believe in God already, since an Atheist wouldn't care if Mormon's believed Jesus and Satan are brothers because the Atheist doesn't believe in God in the first place. The author was directing his article toward the intended audience for the emotionally-charged claim - those who believe in God already. It is therefore not necessary for him to make a case for the existence in God, when his audience probably already believes it.
The first Scripture Mr. West uses (Prov. 8:22-31) to prove the LDS doctrine, Mr. West misuses. The context of Proverbs 8 is wisdom, not a pre-incarnate Jesus. Wisdom was with God. Please read the context. Also Jesus the Messiah of Israel is God in the flesh. Satan on the other hand is a created being (Eze 28:15) (referred to as king of Tyre, see Eze 28:12-19, also Isa 14:8-17). JESUS is not Satan's relative to any degree. JESUS is God's "only begotten Son" (John 3:16). Anything else is a DIFFERENT JESUS. Beware the leaven of Brigham Young.
A-men! Thank you for pointing this out.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God." Based on the verses that succeed this statement, it appears to be a very clear statement Christ was with God before the creation of the world. If we both agree that God created Satan, how is it more blasphemous to say that God had a child that rebelled, than to say that God created a being for the purpose of afflicting and tormenting man.
jn3792. The reason it "IS" blasphemous is this. Jesus is God's only begotten Son (John 1;18, 3;16; 3;18, & 1 John 4;9) The Son and the Father is God's relationship as Father and Son. They are co-eternal, co-exsistant. There is no woman in heaven who birthed Jesus into existance as a result of the Father's loins. On the other hand Satan/Lucifer was created (Eze 28;15) Although angels and mankind are God's creations. The difference between God and mankind/angels is the distance if infinity. God is beyond man's understanding. We must trust and accept what God says about Himself, in as much as He reveals Himself in His Word. The Bible. Seek and you will find, Ask and it will be given, Knock and the door will be opened. Blessings in your search.
mr. sunset - I understand that you interpret the term "Only Begotten" differently than I do. I interpret it as the only begotten in the flesh. We have fathers of our flesh and the Bible clearly indicates that there is a father of our spirits (Heb. 12:9). When discussing the Bible, interpretation is everything and different interpretations don't necessarily mean that we believe in different Jesus's. Every single believer in Christ probably has a slightly different understanding of who he is. If that is the case, how do you classify these differences in and where do you draw this arbitrary line that separates your Jesus from another person's Jesus? If the object is to draw an arbitrary line with the specific intent of trying to marginalize the Christianity of another group, that is your right, but why would you want to do that? Don't we both believe that Christ has the power to save everyone from death and sin? Is that not the essence of Christianity?
Dear BJ:
You seem resigned to the notion that members of the Church, when confronted with issues you deem problematic, will most likely scurry off with their fingers in their ears, chanting, "La-la-la, I can't hear you" rather than taking a serious look at such claims to see whether they have merit.
You suggest the list of problems is "very long." Yet, as far as I can tell, you cite only 4 - most of which are vague in nature. ("Invalid prophecies" is conveniently non-specific.)
Yours is what is known as an ad hominem argument. You attack what you suppose are characteristics of mormons ("they'll label it 'anti' and refuse to investigate the facts"), without actually supporting your own claims, or even attempting to disprove LDS claims, ("Google has all the answers if you're brave enough to look." - This is evidence?)
Dear BJ, part 2:
I can assure you, all of the issues you raised have very satisfactory answers. For example, different versions of the First Vision were given to different audiences at different times for different purposes. By your line of reasoning, the four Gospels must be untrue since they describe the same events in different ways.
I have personally studied all of the cogent issues you brought up, and a great many more, and my knowledge, reasoning capacity, and faith have deepened considerably.
So, are you anti-Mormon? Let's see:
Many, many groups in our society have been the subjects of ridicule and defamatory language. It's easy to think of the slurs that have historically been hurled at American's of African, South American, Italian or Polish ancestry. Jews have been singled out, as have gays and lesbians.
The source of this name-calling is alway bigotry, intolerance, unfamiliarity and fear, etc.
So tell me, by referring to "Mo'ism," where does that leave you?
To inqtom:
To answer your question about the Papyri. I personally am not aware of the seller confirming or being qualified to confirm anything.
But I urge you to study this topic, it is fascinating to say the least.
And I would certainly start with the apologetic sites such as FAIR or FARMS.
They do a better job proving that the Papyri translations were false than most anti sites could ever hope for.
I would also suggest you read Hugh Nibley's research on the matter. When portions of the original Papyri were found in the 60's a lot of work was done by the Church to translate and date them. The internal arguments this created are very interesting and also an intriguing look into the psychology of apologetics.
"As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand." - Josh Billings
Wonderful post Greg.
Indeed, just yesterday I heard Hank Hannagraaf (The Bible Answer Man Radio Show) mention the Jesus/Lucifer brotherhood of Mormonism as a means to polarize. It made me quite frustrated.
Besides all of that, I think an important factor that often is overlooked is the implications that non-LDS Christians believe exist due to their creatio ex nihilo assumptions. Their line of thought goes something like:
1. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers
2. Jesus and Lucifer must be of the same fundamental race/species
3. As GOD (including the Father and H.G.), Jesus is the only member of his race/species
It is at this point that they are offended. For traditional Christians, there are two categories of existence: God and everything else. God exists as uncreated, and everything else exists as created. For them, "creation" implies a moment in time when matter was produced from nothing, or "creatio ex nihilo".
More in next comment.
Therefore, when a traditional Christian is confronted with the idea that someone (in this case Lucifer) is of the same fundamental race/species as Jesus, they immediately cry foul. To them, there is no room for anyone else on the Creator side of the Creator/Creation dichotomy.
Of course, all that being said, theologically speaking they could choose any person in the world and just as correctly point out that Mormons believe that Jesus is that person's brother. But, as Greg points out, this doesn't get the same emotional reaction.
It is as Karl Keating of Catholic Answers said, speaking of similar anti-Catholic tactics, "It must be admitted...they enjoy a certain tactical (if short term) advantage in that they can get away with presenting bare-bones claims such as these; they wear out Catholicism's defenders by inundating them with short remarks that demand long explanations."
It is too bad that anti-Mormons must stoop to such levels as they kick against the pricks.
So, in summary: you believe Jesus and Satan
are brothers with the rest of us?
Christ was not created. That is a cultic teaching that the church rejected hundreds of years ago.
Hello "Mormonism the cult". You said:
"Christ was not created. That is a cultic teaching that the church rejected hundreds of years ago."
You seem to designate Mormonism as a "cult" due to our belief that Christ was created. Well, I have good news for you. Gladly, we don't believe that. In fact, we believe just the opposite. We believe that Christ is eternal, and has always existed and will always exist. So, I suppose you no longer have any reason to refer to Mormonism as a "cult". I'm glad I could clear that up for you.
As a side note, I'm curious as to how you determined that such a teaching (although we don't teach it) falls into the "cultic" category. Is there a list of teachings that fall into that category? Or, did you just say that because it sounds good?
Just to clear something up.
Jesus *is* one with God and the Holy spirit.
Everything was created through Him and for Him.
The devil is not and will never be.
Perhaps speculation about "spiritual species" and things that are not Biblical in origin may have the tendency to lead some astray.
Colossians 1 Verses 15-20
...
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
...
Also ...
...
Matthew 12
48 Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”
...
"Jesus is God":
As a Mormon, I couldn't agree more that Jesus is God. Our unique LDS scriptures proclaim this far more clearly than the Bible does.
Setting that issue aside, I must take issue with your interpretation of scripture. First of all, a "spiritual species" (as you put it) is indeed quite biblical. A better term for it would be "gods". The bible is full of references to a divine assembly of gods, all of them real, and all of them subordinates in Yahweh's court.
Secondly, use misuse Col 1. You seem to interpret the word "everything" and "anything" by pushing them to their limits. You likely believe that "everything" includes even Satan. Those words simply can't be understand in the most literal way possible.
If that were the case, you would be forced to conclude, as the passage says, that "everything" is reconciled to God. This is includes Satan, according to the way you are reading the word "everything". Do you believe that Satan is reconciled to God?
After reading this I feel like I do after seeing a new commercial for the latest greatest pharmacuetical 'magic' pill. It's the same old pill but with different coloring and a new name. See how great it is? But look at the damage it can cause...
What a sales pitch this is on trying to defend the fact that Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers - but yet it is still a long article bestowing the justifications for why they do and at the same time it's trying to sling some slick pitch in to make it sound like Mormons don't. Come on, you sound like a child. If you believe something that shout it out and stand up for it instead of using mamby pamby justification to say you don't but yet you do. You sound like an 8 year old.
I think most readers are more intelligent than the writer gives them credit for.
Do Mormons also believe that you can eventually become gods and rule your very own planet? I've heard that too, and it sounds creepy ... Sounds a bit like Scientology actually.
James,
What I am saying is that you and many others seem to like to read "beyond" what Biblical scripture states, and author your own "beliefs" according to what meaning you *choose* to read into things. That is not how the Bible should be read.
The bible is meant to be - and is - a clear witness for Jesus. That *is* the issue, and it *cannot* be set aside.
I included "Colossians 1 Verses 15-20" directly from the NLT. Perhaps you have a problem with what the Bible states, since I did not provide an interpretation.
Are you looking to argue your world view, or are you seeking the truth ?
James,
More specifically you state "The bible is full of references to a divine assembly of gods, all of them real, and all of them subordinates in Yahweh's court."
1. There are no such references in the Bible.
2. There are no other Gods. Only Jesus, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. (the fact that there are not other living gods is clearly stated throughout the Old and New Testaments)
In the Koran God asks the angels to bow down and worship his creation Adam, but Lucifer refuses to worship God's creation saying that he would not because he (lucifer) was created before Adam and that he was formed out of fire and Adam was made of clay... this is when Lucifer "fell" or became "Satan"... why would God ask Lucifer to bow to Adam?.. just thought it was interesting. I guess that is one reason "Christians" don't believe in the Koran... The bible is it... closed canon
"There are no other Gods. Only Jesus, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit are God"
This is false. Your own statement uses "are" instead of "is" to describe God as being made of 3 destinct personages. Jesus is the son of God. God the father is seperate from him. And even the holy spirit is seperate from God and Jesus.. It is the holy spirit that testifies of the truth of Jesus and God and God's holy word. It is by this spirit that you can know the truth of all things. include God's word the Bible.
Biblical References:
1.John 8:58
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am! [ Or before Abraham was even born, I have always been alive; Greek reads before Abraham was, I am. See Exod 3:14.] ”
John 10:30
[Jesus Speaking] "... The Father and I are one.”
John 1:32
Then John testified, “I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. 33 I didn’t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God.[l]”
Banzai,
To a great extent, the concept of the trinity is indeed a mystery and beyond our understanding. Perhaps we are able to learn more and more about this topic and still yet not fully understand. Speculation beyond Biblical teaching however can lead folks astray.
We do know that the Holy Spirit was upon Jesus without measure, and that Jesus and the Father are one, and so perhaps with our limitations, the statement "Only Jesus, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit are God." was meant to describe what I am describing here.
If we could apply parenthesis and comments to the statement it would look more like this: "Only (Jesus, [who is one] with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is/are God."
Really, the main idea of the point that I was making is that there are no other gods. Sorry for the ambiguity, but it sounds to me like you and I are pretty much meaning the same thing when it comes to this specific item.
James,
"Colossians 1 Verses 15-20" does not specifically mention satan or hell. There are plenty of other passages that *do* talk about satan (see one below). I will follow up with you via e-mail.
...
Joh 8:41 No, you are imitating your real father." They replied, "We aren't illegitimate children! God Himself is our true Father."
Joh 8:42 Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on My own, but He sent Me.
Joh 8:43 Why can't you understand what I am saying? It's because you can't even hear Me!
Joh 8:44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe Me!
...
Every Mormon male hopes to make it to Exaltation when he will become a god, with a world of his own and as many goddess wives as he desires. He will need them to produce the millions of spirits to eventually populate his new world. Sure, Mormons believe there is only one God over this earth,Elohim, but all over the cosmos exalted Mormon men are ruling as gods over their planets.
Mormonism is polytheistic. Brigham Young, second president,said
he didn't know how many gods there are. How could he?; exalted Mormon men are being added to their number all the time. But he did anticipate adding to the number himself, and said so.
And wives? Brigham was looking forward to having thousands.
(SEE: Journal of Discourses,vol.4, page 209). I once asked a
Mormon missionary, "Why don't you tell your contacts what you
really believe; about Jesus and Lucifer, his brother; blood atonement; exaltation and godhood etc., His reply was very honest,
"If we did, no-one would ever join us". Amen!
I know this is an older article, but I want to say something.
Even if every, single bad thing the posters above wrote about were true, does that make the LDS Church bad? No. Hate the Church if you must, but you can't argue the fact that the members are amazing people. Or the wonderful work that is done by the Church everyday. Or the comfort the Church gives to millions of members.
How sad to hate a religion so much that you ignore the good of it simply to further your own agenda.
~Margie..not "anonymous" :)
Glenn Beck’s theology is based on First Century Christianity, not Fourth Century Creeds. For example, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views on Baptism, Lay Ministry, the Trinity, Theosis, Grace vs. Works, the Divinity of Jesus Christ comport more closely with Early Christianity than any other denomination. And Mormons’ teenagers have been judged to “top the charts” in Christian Characteristics by a UNC-Chapel Hill study. Read about it here:
http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com
Those who would denigrate Glenn Beck’s religion, usually have an ulterior motive. 11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were non-Trinitarian Christians. Those who insist on a narrow definition of Christianity are doing our Republic an injustice.
I found it interesting yet not fruitful:
Proverbs 8:22-31 is written not of himself Solomon nor of Jesus but of "wisdom" it is the subject of the proverb , it was in existence before and was present before the earth was set in place and dwelt with God. Take a minute and find the subject mater and it is quite clear God will reveal the truth of his word.
Jeremiah 1:5, Most who have studied understand we are a "living soul" those we have been known before the foundation of the world had been laid. 2 Timothy
1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
And many many more, these do not point at "premortal existence of Jesus", but does point out God knew his creation before it was set in place.
Colossians 1:13-19, was written and remains a testament of "Jesus Godhead" he obviously became flesh to suffer as man, this is a clear message consistent with St Paul's writings where he claims Christ as the foundation of our salvation:
I believe you position clearly is Jesus was created so I'll provide some scriptures to dispute this and will continue my review of your article.
Hebrew 13 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Continued
So seeing your position is Jesus was created we'll continue.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Revelation 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And I suppose the Spirit of God thought this important seeing it was repeated:
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Seeing know one will bow except to God and Jesus is God so?
Philippians 2: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
I failed to mention never put a statement like this in your article because it does not stand true, "Mormons literally believe Paul's testimony in the Bible." it is selectively accepted based on your inner church doctrine not based on St Paul's written word other wise you'd reject the doctrine advocated by the LDS church. Sorry I should have mentioned this earlier, now back to the dissertation.
The next two are a stretch, 1rst the Revelation passage where Christ calls himself "morning bright star" and attempting to join this with Job.
Continued
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