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Not all on the left are pro amnesty
The subject of Immigration Reform and Illegal Immigration can be truly incendiary in a public forum like this. I read every one of your comments and value each of them. I generally don't respond because my job is to put the topic out there to stir up public debate. You know what I think so now it is your turn.
In my last article "Since When does immigration reform mean open borders and amnesty?" I called for anyone with a better idea. Some answered with profanities and insults. Robert Gittelson however penned a thoughtful response and after a brief exchange with him I decided to post his letter, with his permission, so that each of us can see another perspective. It doesn't change my mind though I am encouraged to know that not everyone on the left is supportive of a full scale invasion through amnesty and open borders.
Still, this is a negotiation and positions are mapped out at the extremes. The upcoming debate (if we actually get to participate in one) will be lively and may alter the political and cultural landscape of the United States forever. Whichever side you are on, at the end of the day, we are all Americans exercising our First Amendment Rights. We all believe our position is correct and the other guy is wrong. That is how this works. After all, if it wasn't for Democrats and Liberals, what on earth would Republicans and Conservatives talk about? And vice versa. Here's Robert's response:
After reading your article, “Since When Does Immigration Reform Mean Open Borders and Amnesty?” I felt a sense of optimism. Even though we are theoretically in opposite camps on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform (CIR) debate, believe it or not, we are almost entirely in agreement as to what constitutes an effective CIR. As a longtime advocate for CIR, (I have written many articles in favor of CIR, I am a frequent speaker at CIR symposiums and rallies, and I write a weekly blog for the Standing Firm website advocating CIR), I think that most people would “assume” that we would be, as your article states, diametrically opposed to each other’s point of view. Well, in some ways we are, but in the ways that are going to count when CIR is brought up in Congress, we really are not.
The semantics surrounding this debate divide us, where the goals that we wish to accomplish tend to unite us. The left is guilty of using words like “xenophobe” and “racist,” while the right is guilty of employing words like “open-borders” and “amnesty.” It is my experience that these words are more descriptive of the ideologues at either end of the political spectrum. Most people in both camps are good Americans, and are reasonable people that want to find solutions that secure our borders, and reach a fair resolution to a problem that is universally recognized.
In point of fact, I, like almost everyone that is a serious proponent of CIR, do not in any way condone anything like open borders. I do know of two professors on the far left that tend to advocate policies that some might say are open-border-ish, but almost everyone else that advocates for CIR realizes that enforcement is the centerpiece of any realistic and effective CIR. The term “open border crowd” is a pejorative term meant to distort our position, and paint us with a negative connotation.
Similarly, Amnesty is a word that, again, distorts our position. Yes, we would advocate that some or most of the undocumented residents have a chance at legalizing their status, but our position is really almost identical to yours. Let me elaborate. Most of us believe that a commission of some sort should regulate the amount of immigrants allowed to come here on an annual, (or quarterly), basis. Sorry, but zero is not a realistic number, as we will always allow for refugees, asylees, business investors, and perhaps some extremely qualified and talented individuals in sports, arts, and yes, highly skilled business applications. Also, the unavailability of low-skilled agricultural laborers has decimated our agribusinesses, our largest export category. That being said, if we continue to experience high unemployment, the number of new legal immigrants will be as close to zero as possible. You might want to bring this up with your CIR advocates on the right, because they will be the ones pushing for higher numbers.
As to what you describe as amnesty, what you are proposing in your article, while perhaps worded more harshly than we might word it, is exactly what the new CIR will prescribe. Only through CIR will we be able to weed ourselves of the criminal non-citizens. The rest will, in fact, have to prove their worth, as you describe. Show that they have paid their taxes, or at least file them and work out a payment plan with the IRS, (note: most of them do pay their taxes). They will have to show an employment history. They will have to pay a fine to get right with the law, (something even you didn’t mention). They will have to learn to read, write, and speak English. They will have to stay right with the law in every way for upwards of a decade to earn their citizenship.
Basically, if you and I can agree on a set of principals and an fundamental understanding of just how to make CIR work, then perhaps others can be influenced by us to see the logic of a sensible CIR, instead of nothing and anarchy, which is what we have now. Even though we each approach this from what might be considered a different point of view, there exists enough common ground between our positions to forge an effective compromise. Therefore, if members of Congress can wrap their heads around the concept of uniting enough to solve a problem, as opposed to posturing for their re-election campaigns, then perhaps there is reason to be optimistic after all.
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Comments
Please don't put lies and half truths out there in the public domain. Your grandfathers who came here over 100yrs ago are as much illegal as the current wave of illegal migration. I don't have to tell you that when you point one finger at another there are four pointing at you. I once again ask you to read history properly and after finishing reading if you still think your people came here legally then in the next coloumn of yours please present any valid documentation that you can come up with. Also ponder about what you have mentioned in your last article and think if you applied the same rules to your folks who came here 100yrs ago, how many would have actually remained in this country.
Excellent job.. this is probably the only article that aproaches the issue with a very realistic point of view... to those that want a massive deportation, they are moved on prejudices can't see the facts that this country is made of immigrants and the Econony needs immigrants, but they need to be lawful and willing to assimilate the American culture.
I really hope the Senate move on to fix this problem sooner because the alternative of doing nothing will be negative for everybody in this country
Read History: Thats right. Now go back to your room and take that nice little white pill. It will make you feel so much better. Your limited understanding of what LEGAL means is astounding. Lets all brush up on our history. You however can go read the US Code Title 8 Section 1325. I have copies of the documents of when my ancestors immigrated here. Yes perfectly legal. You? I'll bet Mr. Braun does as well. Something the 20 million invaders can't produce. Legal documents saying they belong here. Spare me the whole European invasion argument.
Here's a suggestion for the forum. Can we build prisons in Mexico to house illegal immigrant criminals?
Why not use federal dollars to buy property and build prison facilities in Mexico. Federally funded staff could work for the immigration system and when Mexican nationals have served their time, they are released to their country of origin. They have already been deported from the United States.
Basically, an effective way to relieve every state budget from the federal burden that comes with failure to enforce federal immigration laws locally.
I think it's key to remove them from this country first, not hold them here costing the taxpayer additional state funds and resources. The states aren't allowed to enforce federal law, but they but they are left to deal with the problems that come with illegal immigrants present in their communities.
Immigration is a FEDERAL issue, local law enforcement refuses to to deal with it so let the federal government do it.
ohh
To Carl and Robert, You both, apparently, advocate "path to citizenship" for illegal aliens here "whose only crime is to cross the border illegally". Do either of you consider ID Theft, use of stolen Soc. Sec. #s, &/or false ID a crime? Is theft of social services intended for US citizens a crime? How about the illegal aliens that have committed these acts, however, have never been prosecuted for them? Are they to be considered criminals under your CIR plan? Is a criminal action defined as one for which a US citizen or legal resident would be prosecuted for? If so, then all the above would constitute automatic denial & deportation, as it should, for the vast majority of the approx. 40 mil illegals knowingly committing these crimes. What about the additional millions that would be brought in via chain migration? Our infastructure cannot sustain the numbers already here. Nor is ID theft a victimless crime. It ruins lives. CIR would be no different than before. Enforce the laws!
This article makes way more sense than the previous one, it looks professional and well written. I agreed with it a 100%, common ground needs to be found and politics need to be put aside for the best interest of this country. By the way thanks for not posting the previous picture of the USA flag upside down which I still consider it an insult.
sounds good Madmummy except for the fact that you need to go and study International law first this is not a fairy tale
Read History: My ancestors immigrated here under the laws established to regulate immigration and naturalization. But, before them came the the White Europeans, who came exploring the World, because they had developed better transportation technology. When they returned they conquered with respectable resistance, since their transportation and weapons technology was superior. They took ownership of the land, set laws, defined borders. Eventually they fought their government for the rights to live free and set their own destiny. Every inch of this land has been fought for, and human blood spilled over it. Now you want us to leave? LOL, nice try. You, should go pick a different struggle.
Let's all push for secured borders, interior enforcement, employer sanctions, an end to sanctuary cities and a 3-year moratorium on immigration from Mexico. Then, once these are in place, we can consider how to handle the illegals already here.
They can be offered a two-year period to apply for amnesty, which will be a ten-year process toward citizenship, on a case-by-case basis. They will also have, in that two-year period, a chance to apply for a self-deportation option, that will allow them to apply for a ?-year work visa with no promise of return.
Every citizen of the USA should be given a encouragement, that if they will not defend the US Constitution, they should leave and find some other country to live in, or lose their US Nationality, and be forcibly deported. Take that Mexican flag and go live like a Mexican in Mexico! GOD BLESS THE USA!
Funny but true story, A really good friend of mine(lets call him Joe) was a very very loud advocate of Immigration control, shut down borders, kick every immigrant out...etc..... All his life he believed that no more immigrants should be allowed into the USA until we get a 100% control of our borders.
About couple of years ago he fall in love with a local resturant waitress with the mexican heritage and guess what folks Karma is a B**** she happens to be an ILLIGAL IMMIGRANT living in this country with out documents. After dating a year they got married in Nov 2008 and are expecting their first child in Oct.
Needless to say Joe's opinions have completely changed Now he adovactes for his lover's fate and wants all immigrants to get a fair Shot to become US citizens.
Moral of the story, Don't judge any one until you really know what they are going through. Becareful for what you ask for. Think before you speak, This world would be a lot better place. Gob Bless USA
Excellent! You found someone who wrote a long letter agreeing with you! Congratulations
Bot of you can go into the kitchen and cook up hare-brained schemes to legalize illegals because there are too many to be handled, and hang the legals because they obeyed the rules
Do you know what it means to be waiting to be given basic professional rights for several years and under strict penalties of getting to the back of the decades long line?
Please, talk after examining issues and identifying the key ones. Immigration reform is or should be about "Legal immigration" simply because there is no "illegal immigration". Got it?
We need to secure our borders, not just the southern border. Immigration laws need to be enforced. This is the first step, in order for reform to work. For those here illegally, they can be put on a list to enter the country legally. They do need to return to their country of origin and wait their turn like everyone else that wants to come here. And before anyone starts about breaking up the family, everyone can leave including the anchor babies. Why should we reward law breakers? They ignore our laws when they cross the border, and everything is fine. When they get caught they look for some kind of loohole in our laws so they will not be deported. No one and no group/organization should be permitted to pick and choose what laws are enforced and what laws should be ignored!
Carl, Please answer this ONE Simple Question, WHAT ARE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS IN IMMIGRATION LAWS ? THANK YOU.
Teaching “immigrants” to read, write, and speak English; America has been investing in that bottomless pit since the mid 1970’s. The current annual cost of educating children of illegals in California ranges from $8 billion to $28 billion; Texas $4 billion, etc. Average investment in ELS student by American taxpayers is 1.5 to 2 times that of students born to citizens. The ROI on that investment for California is an education system that has tanked from what was once considered “one of the best in the world” to one that is now at the bottom of the heap. What’s the problem? Well, part of the problem is, oddly enough, is graduation rates of roughly 50% for the children of illegal aliens. I’m sorry but I think you lost that compromise a long time ago. Candidly, I see no reason to be optimistic. The Federal government currently has accumulated in excess of $100 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities. Medicare is broke within ten years, and Social Security will be broke in less than thirty years.
By the way, any who’d like to argue that the jobs taken were of the sort Americans just wouldn’t do should be forewarned; with 20 years in human capital management and strategic talent management consulting, I can stand toe-to-to in the debate; and will challenge general comments with real numbers. I tend to drive people nuts with that approach. Robert’s challenge that the “unavailability of low-skilled agricultural laborers has decimated our agribusinesses” is a red herring. The visa program for that industry has failed for one reason alone; those who enter the U.S. via that program, simple walk off the fields for better paying jobs in occupations in manufacturing, services, construction and the list goes on-and-on-and …well you get the idea. Another FACT you might wish to bring up to your CIR advocates is that after ICE raids that displace illegals, American take those same jobs at higher wages…I’m just sayin. And at this point I’d like to bring race into the equation. Are you aware
You honestly claimed “we would advocate that some or most of the undocumented residents have a chance at legalizing their status” but stating that position “is really almost identical to yours” has no basis in reality….at all. Why would we when such a position, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, doing so will result in a population increase in the next 35 years of between 138 and 160 million people; and a population of 1.35 billion by 2100, nearly all the result of immigration? WHY, particularly when the (Barbara) Jordan Commission said it was a bad idea. We don’t need another Commission, been there done that.
Anyway, this bill represented just one of myriad examples of clear distortion, if not by you, certainly by those in congress and supporters of such deception. I have yet a better example however that clearly highlights demonstrably different endgames. Ronald Reagan proposed and Congressed passed a onetime Amnesty for roughly 3 million illegals. Ted Kennedy (may he rest in peace) pushed through 6 or 7 subsequent Amnesties under several banners that added 3.5 to 4 million more illegals. The net result, despite Ronald Reagan goodwill gesture, was double the intended Amnesty. Then over two decades the incursion continued at an accelerating rate across unsecure borders where the interlopers take jobs from Americans, abuse social services to the tune of hundreds of billions, degrade the education system, and commit myriad civil and criminal acts having inestimateable financial impact to lost lives. What will be different this time when in fact you suggest another Amnesty to solve what Reaga
Secondly, while Robert and I can agree that words “xenophobe” and “racist,” or “open-borders” and “amnesty” are descriptive labels of left and right ideologues who use them; these terms are not equivalent in their derivative intent or intended impact. Terms like “xenophobe” and “racist” are nothing more than name calling with the intent of intimidating people into (politically correct) submission and silence? I don’t think so, but I’m open to suggestions. On the other hand, the terms “open-borders” and “amnesty” actually refer to the position one holds on a real and serious subject. The distinction is not small; one set of terms attempts to repress speech while the other demands dialogue about a “fair resolution to a problem that is universally recognized” as an assault on the Constitution, the rule of law, and standards of ethical/moral national behavior. These are not pure semantics; one is pejorative the other is not. In all candor Robert, I’m not the least bit offended to be associ
Carl, you are to be commended for posting Mr. Gittelson missive to which I have a few comments.
First I just wonder if anyone can point to someone from the “left” side of the isle (those “guilty of using words like “xenophobe” and “racist,”) can point to a left leaning forum reciprocating with a missive of someone from the “right (guilty of employing words like “open-borders” and “amnesty”)?
Sorry, but my series below has a couple of holes i.e. the content wasn't allowed (don't know why) and the of a coupl of posts the content cut off for exceeding 1000 characters. What was missing is as follows:
...to be associated with or referred to as someone opposed to open borders or amnesty. On the other hand, being referred to as a “xenophobe” and “racist” is an entirely different matter; wouldn’t you agree?
...what Reagan’s didn’t?
...Are you aware that the rates of unemployment, pre-subprime collapse, for Blacks was upwards of 40%? Think about that.
Sorry, but my series below has a couple of holes i.e. the content wasn't allowed (don't know why) and the of a coupl of posts the content cut off for exceeding 1000 characters. What was missing is as follows:
...to be associated with or referred to as someone opposed to open borders or amnesty. On the other hand, being referred to as a “xenophobe” and “racist” is an entirely different matter; wouldn’t you agree?
...what Reagan’s didn’t?
...Are you aware that the rates of unemployment, pre-subprime collapse, for Blacks was upwards of 40%? Think about that.
best article i've read in a while....
very nice...
except for the outrageously naive comments at the bottom...
Carl,
I think the professor/CIR activist whose wife is an immigration attorney and defends illegal aliens' wanted to get his letter posted here. Google robert gittelson.
With amnesty, we've been there, done that, & look what happened. The present situation is much bigger than just allowing a few illegal aliens to remain here. It is about whether the US will ever do what's needed to stop illegal immigration (why are we even having this discussion?). It's about having immigration policy that benefits American workers/citizens/taxpayers - the only real "stakeholders" (not LaRaza). It's about the enormous overpopulation implications. If we grant amnesty to 40 million illegal immigrants, we can expect another 100 million or more to soon follow due to chain migration. This country cannot sustain the crippling burden of this massive number of third world poor to come and live off the tax-paying public (as per the past 20 yrs). And rewarding illegality will only beget more of it.
WHEN WE GET RID OF ALL THE ILLEGAL ALIENS, WE WILL GET RID OF ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT GO WITH THEM! THAT IS A FACT!
Perhaps law makers should try the following before proposing a big “CIR” giveaway to foreign nationals that use counterfeit documentation, violate immigration, employment and other laws: Enforce current immigration laws. Stop birthright citizenship for the children of foreign nationals. Pass a law which makes anyone that enters illegal or purposely overstays a visa ineligible for residency or citizenship. Rigorously punish employers that hire workers that are not legally classified to work.
Immigration and especially illegal immigration has turn into a mass importation of poverty at the cost of the middle class. It is also sad to say that the amount of illegal immigration we have already had and the resulting population growth will adversely affect future legal immigration. Uncontrolled population growth is not Green and degrades the environment for everyone.
Well said Brandon. The only point that I would repeat is that immigration laws were wrote to protect the people and interests of this country as a whole, not to cater to those who wish to come here or just those who would profit from it. Attrition works. Enforce the laws on the books, stop illegal hiring and the illegals themselves will return home.
Our society is built on the premise that the laws of this country will be enforced regardless of color,ethnicity wealth, fame or power. When one group thinks they shouldn't be required to follow the law and gets by with it, it opens an even larger can of worms.
www(DOT)freetrade(DOT)org/files/pubs/pas/tpa-040.pdf
Immigration Reform is GOOD for Our nation.
Just wondering who are these LOSERS such as Brandon, Delaware Bob, that sit and BLAME their own Failures on Poor food pickers, how much more of a LOSER can they be if they are afraid of some dish washing, car cleaning ,food picker to take away their "JOB" WOW!! WHAT A BUNCH OF LOSERS.
My question to this website is why do they let this Billy Bob write here? I know we have the 1st Amendment, but this guy's speach is borderline hate speech; he would do good in Nazi Germany. Carl Braun should be deported back in time to Nazi Germany.
Let me make this clear: a comprehensive immigration reform is inevitable: it is the humane and right thing to do. It is a matter fo when, not if. Just like racist Billy Bob tried to keep the blacks w/ "separate but equal", and failed, in a very same way he is doomed to failure this time around.
Racism always loses in America.
And to answer once and for all the "but they are illegal" argument, illegal immigration is a 2nd degree misdemeanor. Just like when Billy Bob gets a speeding ticket, he pays the fine and gets forgiven, the same applies in the case of illegals.
No human being is illegal, and the current immigration laws are completely unworkable. Poor Billy Bob: he will lose again and he doesn't even know it yet...
Sorry, but my series below has a couple of holes i.e. the content wasn't allowed (don't know why) and the of a coupl of posts the content cut off for exceeding 1000 characters. What was missing is as follows:
...to be associated with or referred to as someone opposed to open borders or amnesty. On the other hand, being referred to as a “xenophobe” and “racist” is an entirely different matter; wouldn’t you agree?
...what Reagan’s didn’t?
...Are you aware that the rates of unemployment, pre-subprime collapse, for Blacks was upwards of 40%? Think about that.
Sadly "Truth" and “Ivan” yet again demonstrate a profound propensity for avoiding informed debate with a favorite devise, NAME CALLING. As I impied in a prior comment, when they no longer have an argument, they resort to name calling.
i believe we should go back to chain immigration hr938 is the bill number. hr 1940 is no more anchor babies. an anchor baby is born to a united states citizen.
I am a Deomcrat and against amnesty or a pathway to citizenship or however you want to spin it.
Why?
Because it violates our most basic American ideals, the rule of law, equality under the law, and non discrimination.
Our immigration law is designed to give a roughly equal chance for people of all races and ethnic groups to come to America legally.
The Pew Hispanic Center and La Raza ( The Race, as in the superior race.. what a crew that is) both agree that allmost all illegal aliens are Hispanic.
Why should lawbreaking Hispanics be given preferential immigration treatment over law abiding people of all other races and ethnic groups?
Why should Hispanic American families have a greater right to family reunification than American families of all other races and ethnic groups?
Americans and legal immigrants spend a long time in jail for document fraud, id theft and tax evasion, all felonies.
Why should illegall aliens be rewarded for these felonies and their other crimes like illegal entry, and driving without a license, and illegally accessing health care etc?
People wanting to immigrate here legally cannot do so if they have committed crimes.
No one in America should be above the law. Ever.
What happened in 1986 when we were promised the borders would be sealed, no illegal alien would ever be able to get employment here, and there would never again be an amnesty?
In 1986 we had 3 million illegals.
Now we have between 12- 30 million, depending on who you believe.
Illegals flooded into our country, and have been using American taxpayer subsidized services like education, health care etc.
Give amnesty again, and next time it will be 100 million here illegally.
If we have immigration reform all of the benefits that have accrued to an illegal while illegal must be paid back to the taxpayer before citizenship can even be considered. That is every birth and every welfare payment.
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