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Vic Wahl, Exec. Capt. of Field
Operations, Madison PD
In 2001 Wisconsin Assistant Attorney General Jeffrey Kassel told the Wisconsin Supreme Court twice that Wisconsin’s ban on concealed carry did not violate the Wisconsin State Constitution’s right to bear arms because no statute prevents citizens from open carrying guns.
In State v. Phillip Cole; Appeal Number 2001AP000350 – CR, AAG Kassel stated: "It is the state's position that it is lawful to walk down State Street or Wisconsin Avenue carrying openly." (35 min, 10 seconds into the oral arguments.) Listen here.
And in State v. Adam S. Gonzales; Appeal Number 2001AP000224 – CR, Kassel again stated (56 min, 10 seconds into the oral arguments) "It is the state's position that it is legal to walk down State Street in Madison with a pistol in your holster." The court further questioned Kassel, (59:40) "Is it the State's position that anybody can, other than a felon, but any of us can walk down State Street carrying with a holster with a pistol in it?" and Kassel answered, "Absolutely." The court again questioned Kassel (1:03:31) “But you can carry a loaded shotgun down-- leave this building-- down State Street. Is that correct?" and Kassel again answered, "Yes." Listen here.
And then on April 20, 2009, in response to continued police harassment of open carriers, Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen issued a “Memo” explaining that the open carry of a holstered handgun is not “disorderly conduct” in Wisconsin. Not long after this memo was issued with a huge wave of publicity, a Madison, WI police officer arrested Travis Yates for disorderly conduct because . . . he was open carrying a holstered handgun and headed to – you guessed it, State Street. Hmmmm.
Fast forward a week or so, and an open carry friendly Madison police officer or two leaked the news that that police officers were being "reminded" by email to review the memo advising officers that mere open carry is not grounds for disorderly conduct. So I made an “open records request” under Wisconsin law for this mystery email – and I got it, so here it is:
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Subj:
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RE: Open Records Request
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Date:
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8/31/2009 1:53:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
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From:
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To:
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Mr. Stollenwerk,
Below is the text of the email requested. If you would like a paper copy, it would be available for pick up at the 211 S. Carroll St. room GR-10.
Capt. Carl Gloede
City of Madison Police
211 S. Carroll St.
Madison, WI 53703
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From: Roman, Kristen
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:26 PM
To: PD LE
Subject: Recent Enforcement Questions
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:26 PM
To: PD LE
Subject: Recent Enforcement Questions
Recently, Central officers in particular have been confronted with some enforcement "gray areas" in need of further discussion. Namely, the matter involving Steven Bottila and his asserted disability/service dog, and the open firearm carry arrest from last weekend. Both of these have raised questions as to future enforcement approaches.
After consultation with the City Attorney's Office I can offer you some preliminary guidance, but understand that each of these issues warrants further discussion and more definitive legal evaluation is soon to follow. In the meantime, please employ the following guidelines when dealing with either of these issues:
Steven Bottilla - The advice from the OCA to this point is that we change nothing about our approach to this individual. While the recent lawsuit was dismissed, it has yet to be determined whether or not that case holds relevance for our purposes and the City Attorney is in the process of assessing next steps. So - for now we must treat Steven's claims as though no lawsuit had taken place. He can assert his disability and the status of his "service" dog without further scrutiny with respect to being in Peace Park and/or area businesses. That said, his conduct is key and he can certainly be escorted from any area in which he is causing a disturbance. Just don't go taking him out of places simply because the owners don't believe his disability/dog to be valid.
Open Carry - We have received information that several open carry advocates may descend upon the downtown area over the weekend to press the issue and critique police response. Again, after preliminary discussions with the City Attorney's Office, and in keeping with Capt. Wahl's earlier instruction on this issue, officers cannot simply write a DC ticket based solely on the open carry itself. Each incident is a case by case assessment, and open carry obviously can and should prompt contact with the individual(s) carrying, but unless additional articulable facts exist to substantiate Disorderly Conduct, a citation/arrest is not valid for mere open carry. In those situations where facts do exist to substantiate a Disorderly Conduct citation/charge, go ahead and seize the weapon as evidence and property tag it pending court resolution.
If you have any questions let me know. Stay tuned for updates as we learn more from the legal minds at work on these matters :)
Stay safe,
KR
Lieutenant Kristen Roman
Madison Police Department
Central District - Patrol Operations
211 S. Carroll St.
Madison, WI 53703
This multi-year near-comedic chain of communication, from AAG Kassel’s “honest your honors, you can open carry on State Street,” to the current game of “memo, memo, who’s got the memo” down at Madtown PD got me thinking that maybe I should ask for more records to see what the police are doing to straighten things out. And so I made ANOTHER open records request under Wisconsin law, this time for any video records of discussions about “the memo,” and low and behold, they sent me this, a videotaped “counseling session” between Madison’s own Captain Victor Wahl and the officer who arrested Travis Yates in Madison recently:
OK, that was a joke, only the first open records response above (the email) was real.
But seriously, this game of “memo, memo, who’s got the memo” being played out in Wisconsin by allegedly professional police departments is not a laughing matter – it’s ridiculous. Taxpayers are going to pay, and police officers’ careers are going to be ruined.
If Wisconsin police chiefs, or "Executive Captains," cannot set and enforce clear policies to respect open carry rights, they need to be fired.
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For more info: OpenCarry.org & DC Gun Rights Examiner
Comments
These officials need to start realizing that they are breaking the law by any "infringment" on the 2nd amendment, it is a right, period, end of discussion. If they dont want to be around armed citizens, they can move, if they are afraid of armed citizens, then they need to stop doing bad things that they would have to worry about any reprisals. The only people who should not be allowed guns, are people who have abused their right to do so, by being a felon, a real one, not one of the bogus felons where they now have made you a felon for a victimless crime, and these politions that dont want to uphold the constitution that they swore to uphold, if you cant swear, or follow through with your oath, do not run for offices, and if you do violate your oath, there should be consequences, like, the death penalty, that will put a stop to these BS games from elected officials.
(my emphasis below)
"...open carry obviously **can and should** prompt contact with the individual(s) carrying..."?
And JUST WHY IS THAT??????
Because slaves arent allowed to have any kind of control over themselves thats why, they want to keep the myth that only criminals and cops can have guns. Cops arent supposed to be our guards anymore than this country to be a prison, however, they dont see it that way. They want a monopoly on power and how dare a slave (citizen) wield anything other than submission to "authority" who is actually supposed to be "servants".
We-The-people are no longer in control of the USA. We must hold our collective breaths to see what the SCOTUS decision is on the 2nd amendment incorporation issue as that's what we modern Americans rely on; courts to allow our inalienable rights for & to us. Maybe then, we can all sigh in relieve... if this BS was happening 100 years ago, the peoples Militia of Wi. would have marched to the Gov blds. and removed those from office that where contemptuous of the Constitution. If we did this today, we would be mowed down by a great force with firepower vastly superior to all law abiding citizens combined, which most are forbidden to posses in the first place. Either way, 2A as intended is probably lost, unless there is, for some unpredictable reason, a drastic change in the system, and I doubt any one of us is really ready or able to make THAT happen.
;_:
I am SO GLAD, I don't live in Cheeselandia. :)
They will get away with what the citizens allow them to get away with. It's time to stop this abuse of citizens because the Police are uninformed, misinformed or just stupid!
Politicians and law makers are a bunch of BS. We have a right to carry a firearm or weapon. Usually I have a knife on me at all times, half the time, my pistol. Why? I feel better knowing that I can DEFEND myself if some A-Hole decides to become crazy today and shoot at or near me in attempt to hurt, kill, or rob me or anyone around me. We were given the right to bear arms by the founding fathers. Our government officials have sworn to uphold the US constitution..... If they fail to do so, they need to be removed from office.
Sorry Oliver, I don't rely on the courts to enforce my rights. I rely on my ability and willingness to bring harm to those who would disabuse me of them, if and when necessary.
Most who are currently like me in that attitude will probably not survive long if the flag goes up, or should we meet an unruly and unlawful LEO. However, we shall make it costly and inculcate in them the concept of consequence. Until most of us regain that attitude so prevalent in our forebears we shall as a mass be enslaved.
I and others like me cannot be enslaved, for we know there are worse things than being dead. Until you guys catch up in the valuation of liberty, we shall be vilified, have our characters blackened, and perhaps be killed. Those first two provide excuse for the third. But never forget, when we are gone, you're up next.
Wouldn't it be better to send the message now, while we can do so relatively peacefully? Alas! I do not hold hope for that, but Damn, wouldn't it be nice?
"Again, after preliminary discussions with the City Attorney's Office, and in keeping with Capt. Wahl's earlier instruction on this issue,"
What "earlier instruction"???
Time for another “open records request” Mike.
"I am SO GLAD, I don't live in Cheeselandia. :)"
Could be worse. You could live in Illinois, particularly those godawful places called "Cook County" and "Chicago."
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