Soldiers present to the media the arsenal that was seized
Saturday from a safe house after a four-hour shootout in Acapulco,
Mexico, Monday, June 8, 2009. The four hour long gun battle last
Saturday night left 17 people dead, 13 suspected hit men, two
innocent bystanders and two soldiers according to the latest report
from an Army commander. (AP Photo/Javier Verdin)
The claim that "90% of the guns used by Mexican drug cartels come from the United States" has been thoroughly debunked (I talked about it here, for example). I have also discussed, here and here, various sources of drug cartel weapons that the forcible citizen disarmament lobby would prefer not to talk about.
The "90%" claim has, in fact, been so thoroughly discredited that even those who tried to make political hay of it have been forced to back away from it. Here's Brady Campaign president Paul Helmke:
Rather than argue about percentages, let's focus on the fact that 20,000 trafficked guns from America have ended up at Mexican crime scenes.
We'll talk about that "20,000" figure in a minute--first, though, let's look at Helmke's casual willingness to not "argue about percentages."
He certainly seemed interested in arguing about them back in April:
As the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) reports, 90 percent of firearms recovered at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to gun sellers right here in the United States.
The Violence Policy Center's executive director, Josh Sugarmann, wanted to "argue about percentages" less than a month ago.
A new study released by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reveals that "Over 90 percent of the firearms seized in Mexico and traced over the last 3 years have come from the United States" and that "the firearms seized in Mexico have been increasingly more powerful and lethal in recent years."
So much for NRA chief Wayne LaPierre's oft-repeated claim that Mexican gun traffickers don't bother to "trifle with paperwork at U.S. gun stores."
So, what about those "20,000 trafficked guns"--isn't that rather damning? Well, certainly it's nothing to be happy about. Oh--did I mention that that number represents 5 years worth of seized guns? Let's think about some context here. How many illegal immigrants have come across the border in the last 5 years? How many tons of illegal drugs? If your answer, in both cases, was "a heck of a lot more than 20,000," give yourself a cigar.
There's also the little matter of what we're supposed to do about it. The same report cited by Helmke and Sugarmann states that 4,000 of those trafficked guns came from California--#1 Brady Campaign ranked California, where nearly every "anti-trafficking" measure the Brady Campaign can think of (one gun per month, no "gun show loophole," waiting periods, registration of gun owners, state licensing for dealers, etc.--not to mention the strictest faux "assault weapon" ban in the nation and a ban on .50 caliber rifles) is already in place. California in fact, is apparently the second largest source state of guns trafficked into Mexico (Texas is first). Proximity to the border would seem to play a much larger role than the restrictiveness of gun laws.
Finally, and most importantly, any new gun laws, even if there were reason to believe such laws would significantly hamper the cartels' efforts to acquire firearms, would infringe on the rights of people who are not breaking any laws. That's not how we're supposed to do things in this country.
Check out other Gun Rights Examiners:
- Atlanta: You bet it's personal!
- Austin: Patrick Burris: Are 5 people dead by government?
- Boston: Back door gun control
- Charlotte: Dangers of gun registration: 'The Belgian Corporal'
- Cleveland: Get Inside: Mountain Man Tradin Post
- DC: Sotomayor: latinas, guns, and werewolves
- Denver: The warrior code
- Los Angeles: Independence, 2009.
- Minneapolis: Taking to the air in defense of open carry
- National: LA Sheriff reports on 'street justice' nostalgia
- Seattle: Gun rights leaders tell U.S. Senate ‘No’ on Sotomayor nomination
- Wisconsin: Gun rights advocates make progress
Comments
Great article, Kurt!
Apparently, it does not bother Helmke one bit to be exposed as a bald-faced Liar. All in a days' work for him, I guess.
His family must be so proud....
"That's not how we're supposed to do things in this country."
To which country are you referring? The USA of the founders or the new, improved, version 2.0 USA that Obama & Co. are "rebuilding" out of the old one?
This is not really a problem. Our friends in Mexico can completely stop all gun movement into Mexico. They just need to build a fence along their border with the US. That will stop it once and for all.
Sorry Willie12345, but that wouldn't stop the flow of American manufactured guns into Mexico. Our government sends them to their government, how did you think the majority of them turned out to be fully automatic? Then the Mexican government, its law enforcement community, and military then sell them to the drug cartels of just take the guns with themselves when they enlist in the cartels.
So yes, the fence might stop the flow of illegally trafficked guns, but it would not stop the flow of the legally trafficked government to government guns, which are then illegally trafficked to the drug cartels.
Yes, a great big fence might indeed be a solution to any more infiltration of US guns.
This article is an example of illogic.
Kurt says we ought to compare the 20,000 US guns found at Mexican crime scenes and compare them to illegal immigrants or contraband drugs.
Huh?
Why not compare it to Manny Ramirez's speeding tickets or the price of salad dressing? After all, that, too, would make no sense.
Another thing Kurt either omits or simply is clueless about: the 20,000 represents the number of US guns recovered at Mexican crime scenes. It doesn't represent all US guns used in Mexican crimes. Given law enforcement in Mexico is nowhere near that in the US--it is logical to expect there are far, far more than 20,000 US guns used and being used in Mexican crime.
Understand Kurt is more than happy to let criminals, terrorists, and the mentally ill have unrestricted access to firearms.
Salad dressing..............
Obviously the substance shaking between your ears while you type, Mr. Kidd. The comparison was meant to illustrate the amount of drugs that flow into this country from Mexico. When we look at that and do a comparison, 11 guns a day doesn't seem that overwhelming to me. Especially when you consider the fact that a substantial number of them were more than likely distrubuted via their own law enforcement, as you yourself admit, is weak initself.
"Given law enforcement in Mexico is nowhere near that in the US..."
Tip your head to the side Mr. Kidd, that unpleasent feeling of mayonaise and vineger will soon drain out, and leave you feeling much better in time.
Apparently, Curt is math-challenged.
Let's work the problem for him: 20,000 US guns were found at Mexican crime scenes over the past 5 years. Curt believes this represents all the US guns involved in Mexican crime. So, he does the math as best he can and arrives at a figure of 11 guns per day come into Mexico from the US.
Of course, this assumes that in every instance of Mexican crime, the guns are recovered. That assumption is false. In reality, guns are rarely recovered, relative to the number of crimes. Therefore, the 20,000 figure represents but a small sample of the US guns used in Mexican crime.
My apologies for doing math without using assumed numbers. I'll try again, try to keep up with me, that dressing should be finding its way out soon.
Lets ASSUME, that the Mexican Police, recover 25% of the weapons that they distributed to the cartel. making the 20,000 equal 1/4 of the 80,000.
I'll break the rest down for you financially.
Lets ASSUME, that the weapons were all bought in the United States at retail value, and they were all AR type rifles going for an easy 1k ea. Thats a value of $80,000,000 for the whole load. ($20,000,000 for the siezed portion)
Doing a random search for a drug bust found me this.
" The operation -- which investigated crimes in the United States, Mexico and Canada -- netted some 59 million dollars in cash, 12,000 kilos (12 tonnes) of cocaine, 544 kilos (1,200 pounds) of methamphetamine and 1.3 million Ecstasy pills."
contd' :
We couldn't manufacture enough weapons to compete with the amount of inflowing drugs. (Which by the way are already banned in this country.)
Do the math for illegal immigrants and see how that works out for you too.
Curt: When you're in a hole, it's best to stop digging.
We can assume any number you wish--no matter how absurd. GIGO and all that.
Your 'analysis' attempts a comparison of two separate issues. You seem to be trying to say that it's ok for US guns to illegally go to Mexico to be used in crime because Mexico sends illegal drugs to the US.
I'm sure such logic seemed perfectly reasonable when you were 6 years old and explaining to your mom why you socked your baby sister because she hit you first. But, as we both know, mom wasn't buying it then, either.
Look at this: www.shipleylegalfund.com You won't believe your eyes, If a FBI Agent gets busted for dealing firearms, you can be next. ATF does not know the meaning of Dealer or Collector. If your hobby is collecting guns you better read this. Thank you.
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