Oleg Volk photo (click photo to enlarge)
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Readers may remember mention here, and in the work of some of my other Gun Rights Examiner colleagues (links beneath the photo), of California's AB 962. This law is designed to make purchase of ammunition that can be used in handguns (and there are very few calibers for which someone hasn't made a handgun) as difficult as possible, short of an outright ban. This, of course, was touted as a major "victory" by the Brady Campaign (and I suppose I can't argue--a defeat for liberty is a victory for the Brady Campaign).
In a more recent development, though, blogger Thirdpower points out a possibly unintended consequence of the coming (it goes into effect in February 2011) law. An online retailer of ammunition and shooting accessories, Cheaper Than Dirt, has announced that it will, as of 2011, stop selling ammo not only to private citizens in California, but to government agencies, as well, stating about the new policy that:
. . . it will apply to every individual, business, and agency in CA.
I have no way of knowing how much business Cheaper Than Dirt does with the California government (I do know that CTD at least seeks to do business with government agencies), but even if that amount is small (or even zero), this is an admirable, principled stand. It is, in fact, one that Ronnie Barrett, of Barrett Firearms Manufactuirng, understands well. In 1982, Barrett became the first (to my knowledge) to offer rifles chambered in the .50 BMG caliber on the open market. That caliber, due to its power, has become one of the gun haters' favorite targets, despite no evidence of such a rifle ever being used to kill one person in the U.S.
In 2004, the forcible citizen disarmament lobby succeeded in banning such rifles in California. Ronnie Barrett, in contravention of the myth of "gun manufacturers' callous greed," responded by refusing sales to any California government agency, or even to service rifles previously purchased by California agencies. His position is that it is illegal to knowingly sell guns to criminals, and in enforcing "laws" that violate the Constitutionally guaranteed, fundamental human right of the individual to keep and bear arms, the Calfornia government itself has become a criminal enterprise--so no Barrett rifles for them.
I should also mention that STI (known mostly for very high-end 1911 type pistols) followed the same example (pdf file), in response to passage in California of legislation requiring that all semi-automatic pistols "microstamp" the cartridge case with identifying information--and will no longer sell any of their fine pistols in California, to either private citizens or government agencies.
It is gratifying to see principle trump the bottom line at these companies, but without many others following their example, their principled stand will be largely symbolic. I can't afford a Barrett rifle (and would have trouble using one from a wheelchair, anyway) or an STI pisol, but I do buy a fair amount of ammo online. Cheaper Than Dirt will be the first place I look when shopping for ammo.
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Comments
Posted on some firearm and freedom related sites so these guys can be properly rewarded.
Just FYI, you may catch the ire of some online gun communities for this. I've not had a problem with CheaperThanDirt before, but a year ago, immediately after the election, they jacked up their ammo prices substantially and a lot of people swore off them forever due to perceived price gouging (at a time when other places like ammoman weren't). Stuff like this may help put them back on the good side of gun buyers.
Well, as a CA citizen, I'd have to point out that screwing over law-abiding residents in this state due to the stupidity of our legislature isn't "principled", it's callous.
We're fighting hard to retrieve our rights. Note that of the 3 appelate-level incorporation cases before the USSC, only the CA case had explicitely recognized incorporation... New York and Chicago both turned down the notion.
So it's really not-very-gratifying to see businesses like CTD work hard to deny us resources, harming the shooting public in California in our attempts to rescind the garbage laws they object to.
I guess we'll just have to remember to find a way to screw them over when they want our help in the future.
Sorry Chuckles, but you are wrong. CTD didn't sell you out. Your legislators did. Do something about instead of whining that others won't do for you what you have failed to do for yourselves. There are many ways to do this. You can leave Ca., you can diselect public officials, you can exercise your rights in violation of the law and resist when accosted, you can gather en masse and live at the state capital until you win, etc.
There are many things you can do. I recommend leaving Ca. If you choose not to do so because of job, family, financial loss on your overpriced home or any other reason then you have no right to denigrate others who will not surrender to tyrants. Leave, ruin their tax base, ruin their representative count in Congress, let their industry die for lack of qualified employees, thus further harming their fiefdom.
Otherwise, quit whining because someone else won't save you from yourself.
Chuckles,
Y'all let this crap become law. It happened on your watch. The rest of us want it known that there are consequences to actions.
Oh, and I actually have no sympathy for Californians. Too many of them are fleeing the pit they made that gorgeous state into and are trying to turn their new homes into the same socialist pigsty they fled.
Perhaps those of us not in CA should work to just screw over those of you in CA, though I would rather first build a wall to keep you in the hellhole you created .
As an Illinois native who relocated to Kansas, I am sympathetic to the predicaments of people like Chuckles48. When the majority of your state's population and its political infrastructure is ravenously anti-gun and you've done everything you can on an individual level (voting, joining groups, writing to newspapers, meeting your elected officials, sharing information, teaching your friends to shoot), it's exceptionally frustrating when outsider's say, "Hey, it's your own fault that your state is crushing your rights." I'll give Chuckles48 the benefit of the doubt and presume that he has been an individual Second Amendment advocate, which is all any of us can do. He cannot be blamed for the sheer enormity of what honest gun owners are facing in places like CA.
That being said, I also cannot fault CTD for declining to sell ammunition under these circumstances. It would appear they are attempting to burden the government with the same measure recently foisted onto citizens...
(cont.)
presumably in an effort to illustrate the folly and injustice of the law. If my home state passed such a measure, I would be pleased to see the agents of those who enacted it suffer the consequences as well, even if it meant having to drive to another state to buy ammunition.
Chuckles, I don't see how CTD is making California gun owners' situation any worse than it was already. If CDT had NOT decided to sell ammo to California residents, the new law would still have made it ridiculously cumbersome, with the ammo having to be shipped to a "registered ammunition dealer" (of which there are not likely to be many, considering all the hoops and difficulties to be imposed on them). The important thing is cutting off the government.
"Well, as a CA citizen, I'd have to point out that screwing over law-abiding residents in this state due to the stupidity of our legislature isn't "principled", it's callous."
How do you figure? They're not cutting off the citizens cause they want to. The new law exposes them to large new costs, which how would they recoup? They're cutting off your erstwhile public servants for being tyrants.
@straightarrrow: What makes you think I _haven't_ been doing something about it? Go here: www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=71
and educate yourself about what California gun owners are actually doing to clean up messes like this.
As to leaving CA... I'm a native. Y'all have been exporting your trash to my state for my entire life. Simple statistic: 50% of all CA residents were born in another state. Another 25% were born in another country. _WE_ are not responsible for that. YOU are. Y'all send your gutter-sweepings here, and ruin _our_ state, and then you blame us for it. Note - while we pay welfare to y'all as often as not (check out federal tax balance of payments #s some time if you don't believe me).
You advocate moving out of state, then talk about "not surrendering to tyrants". The fork in your tongue must reach your tonsils.
@Grrrrr: Don't like 'em? Then keep 'em in the first place. They aren't FROM here, except as the last-but-one stop. By and large, the very people you complain about are native somewhere else. The east coast is a big donor. Samesame with the upper midwest. We'd frankly rather you kept them in the first place, given what they've done to us. Hell, look at the last few mayors of San Francisco, to illustrate:
Gavin Newsome, born SF (current)
Willy Brown, Mineola, TX
Art Agnos, Springfield, MA
Dianne Feinsten, SF
or our Governors:
Arnold Schwarzenneger, born in Austria
Gray Davis, born in The Bronx, NY
Pete Wilson, Lake Forest, IL
George Deukmejian, Menands, NY
Jerry Brown, San Francisco
Ronald Reagan, Tampico, IL
See a picture here, or do I need to break out the crayons.
Y'all have sent us your trash, and complain about the result.
RK: The new law doesn't go into effect until February 2011. So, you were saying something about their being exposed to some kind of new legal liability in 2010?
Chuckles: No, my mistake. I thought the new policy was to take place more or less concurrently with the new law.
Sorry Chuckles, you lose again. I was born in California, but I escaped to America. There is no dichotomy in my suggestion that you leave. If you have fought the fight and cannot win it, you are a fool to remain there and continue to finance your own abuse. If enough of you did it, those remaining would only be the complete parasites. When that occurs, there will be no choice but that they suffer the consequences. To end that suffering they will all die from neglect or abuse or change their ways. As long as you continue to contribute you are part of the problem.
It matters not where the politicos were native, it was native Californians who voted for them. Otherwise they wouldn't have gained power, now would they have? Nice try though at blaming others for your mistakes.
I suppose you would blame Austria for Hitler, though it was the Germans who gave him power?
Well?
Good idea gun dealers and pruchasers. Cut them off! Including the COPS! Maybe that will get their attention.
Funny. I stopped doing business with CTD because of their practices. Seems they decided to ship me stuff I hadn't ordered and kept billing my credit card, which they obviously kept on file. It took me a week to get anyone to talk to me about it. And then they refused to refund my money at first. Told me to accept the shipment, inventory every thing, send them a list of every thing I "decided not to keep" complete with price and catalog number, box it up and ship it back at my expense, and then they'd decide which items would be "eligible" for refund.
Eventually, I managed to get my money back, but it was a fight all the way. I'd say Californians aren't losing anything in this case.
straightarrow: So I gather you've never heard of Nordyke? How about Pena v. Cid? Sykes v. McGinness? In short... "the good fight", which we seem to be winning at the moment? Here, go read up, and you can see what you walked away from.
wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page#Important_Cases
Note that Nordyke returned the only appellate-level pro-incorporation decision in the country - and Alameda had to work for an en banc hearing to try to get it overturned. That's happening right now in California.
straightarrow: "It matters not where the politicos were native, it was native Californians who voted for them. " You seem to be unable to read the demographics, so let me get the crayons out.
In California, 75% of the population is non-native, born someplace other than California. 25% is thus native-born. In the 2008 election (which, frankly, is an extreme swing case) 61% of the population voted for the liberal candidate-of-choice. 37% voted conservative.
Native-born Calfornian overwhelmingly vote to the more conservative side of the scale. Not uniformly, but overwhelmingly. Hell, if we just cut _back_ on immigration into this state, it would be less of an issue, and we'd have a more balanced polity. The reality is, though, that CA immigrants are (mostly) self-selected for the left end of the political spectrum. Which just throws the balance off even further.
Thus endeth the lesson in basic math and voting statistics.
California is a third world country full of savages and can’t be saved.
The best thing for real Americans to do is cut your losses and get out while you can.
CTD has always been a reliable company and I have done business with them for years.
After the election the price of ammo went up because of demand and NOT price gouging. If you’ve had trouble with them in the past it could just be a fluke.
The jest of the editorial is that CTD is sending a message to California and that message is good riddance
The notion that Californians can actually "control" their legislature and these actions is ridiculous. Can any American in any state claim that their vote actually matters anymore? Hardly. Politicians do whatever the hell they want despite what their constituents want. California is no different then Washington in this regard. Cheaper Then Dirt is doing a principled stand, I hope they stick to it. But it's a lesson everyone should take - stop doing business with government (all government). Refuse to pay taxes, refuse to provide services, refuse to get permits, licenses, permissions slips - everything across the board. Stop PARTICIPATING. This is you strongest and most powerful weapon. And if this fails, then tear the bastards down.
As a never resident of the people's republic of California, I can state that I don't feel in whit of regret for anyone who chooses to live there, period. I don't care who you are.
Leave or live under their rule and eat the crumbs they let you have. Sooner or later we're all going to face the same thing but the responses may be somewhat different and far nastier than simply whining and wetting the bed. If you don't have the good sense to leave, I don't feel sorry for you.
If I hadn't just bought a case of .223 from Walmart yesterday, I'd go online and buy one from CTD (if their prices were competitive.)
My family went on vacation a couple of years ago. I had told my wife that I would NOT go to California. She scheduled it as one of our destinations anyway thinking when push came to shove, I'd just "go along." When I found out our next destination was CA, I turned the car around, went back to the Hotel we had stayed in in Nevada the night before, got out and told them they could pick me up on their way back. Rented a room and did my own thing for three days. I also told my wife if she pulled that ch*t again, she'd go on vacation without me for the rest of our lives together.
I all the conservatives in CA decided to pack up and LEAVE, how long before CA would IMPLODE under it's own welfare state weight???
CA gun owners who stay here and fight the good fight are outnumbered, out voted, and despised by 60% of citizens in our state. Yet we continue to fight. We don't tuck our tails between our legs and run away like the cowards the rest of you seem to think we should become.
We are up against politicians who don't care what their constituents want, don't care about the costs of their decisions, don't care that they are setting this state up for massive failure on so many fronts that salvation may be impossible. Yet we stay here and we keep fighting. We vote, we lobby, we organize, we argue, we stand together, we spend our hard earned money, we file lawsuits, we call, we write letters, and we march. We keep fighting! We do not run away! We are on the front lines fighting against the erosion and outright theft of our rights and freedoms.
If you can't bring yourself to support us, then at least stop sounding like our gun grabbing liberals, they too would like us to all just lea
well then you should be happy, because I will never return to Ca. Yeah, I heard of those cases, I also have heard of a whole lot of other things you tolerate out there. When I escaped Ca. I was very young, thank God! Gave me time to learn some values.
But, hey, if you like it, keep contributing to the system. We have settled the issue of secession, but the issue of expulsion hasn't been tested yet. So, we still have hope out here in fly-over country.
@ David and Chuckles48, according to economists Arthur Laffer and Stephen Moore who wrote a report titled Rich States, Poor States, "When California faced a Mount Everest-sized $14 billion deficit in 2003, one of the major causes for the red ink was the stampede of millionaire households from the state....Out of the 25,000 or so seven-figure-income families, more than 5,000 left in the early 2000s, and the loss of their tax payments accounted for about half the budget hole."
I'm no millionaire but I lived there from 1995-2002 and I realized that even though I loved the perceived quality of life in California it was just a Utopian mirage. I decided that eventually the welfare system was going to bring down the state and there wasn't anything conservative voters could do to prevent it.
CA now has a $60 Billion dollar deficit and growing. I left CA while I still had the financial resources to leave. A point will come where you will be bled dry financially and be forced to stay.
Last year I helped my daughter move out of Califotnia. I refuse to vist any state that dows not recognize my right to self defense. California is one of those bigoted areas.
It doesn't matter whether you like Californians or refuse to visit here. The issue is the California Legislature is a microcosm of the Federal Legislature. Whatever programs that are conceptualized on the federal level have most likely been experimented with and tried in California or the east coast. The politics in place here dictate the politics of the future in the U.S.
Unless major attitude changes take place throughout this country, we ALL will have to put up with this crap!
@smettler, "Unless major attitude changes take place throughout this country, we ALL will have to put up with this crap!"
Major attitude changes have already begun taking place. You either believe that everyone will put up with this crap or you don't. I do not. The country is already being radically polarized by region and state.
I firmly believe Americans will eventually become something akin to oil and water, separate by regions. Those who feel that they are owed something for nothing and want the welfare state that the Federal government and California seem all too willing to provide, and those who do not feel that they are owed anything, like me, and want vastly less state and federal government intrusion.
Eventually I believe that those who are perceived to be undermining our economy and who threaten our national viability will be made to feel very unwelcome. We will thus revert to an economically segregated society. Those who have, and those who want to take it.
Joshua; Overall I agree with your analysis that the U.S. is already polarized into camps. The problem is in the numbers in which camps. Right now it seems the numbers embracing a government as the saviour to the people outnumber those of us who depend on self-reliance. A return to common sense is needed, but we have to start in the schools and reclaim our children from the over-educated idealouges that control our youth from early childhood though early adulthood and prevent them from seeing reality.
@smettler, " A return to common sense is needed, but we have to start in the schools and reclaim our children from the over-educated idealouges that control our youth from early childhood though early adulthood and prevent them from seeing reality."
I agree with this point. Your suggestion is important but it is also a long term solution. The issues which are threatening our national viability are more imminent and may require more draconian, even pugilistic, measures to rectify in the short term.
Not that I'm advocating the use of force for problem solving, I'm just saying if push comes to shove all options for "diplomacy" need to remain on the table including diplomacy by other means.
Those who intend to take, with impunity, what has not been earned may not take no for an answer.
@smettler, " The problem is in the numbers in which camps. Right now it seems the numbers embracing a government as the saviour to the people outnumber those of us who depend on self-reliance."
I do not perceive this to be an insurmountable problem.
Fortunately the people who are in favor of less government intrusion are also in possession of greatest number of force multiplying resources. Again, I'm not advocating force in problem solving.
Hopefully logic and a common sense approach will prevail in the end, but should it fail, and we have to be prepared for such an eventuality, I am not in the least bit concerned about the numerical odds.
Whats good gor the goose is good for the gander. If the state government wants to impose such laws on the private citizen then they should be equally imposed on government. If they cant handel that then simply refuse to do bussiness with those agencies. Especially with that micro stamping crap. BTW all you need to do to collect any would be evidance is to simply tape a ziplock bag to the ejector port and you will catch all the brass. Since that is where the serial number will be stamped at nothing will be found. As for revolvers lol that will become a good selling point for them as they do not jam nor do they throw out the casings. giving the shooter the opportunity to pocket the brass. This micro stamping thing is complete garbage.
atleast I know who I am voting out of office next election.
Greetings and salutations to all of you commenters.I too once lived in Kalifusion. I moved there in 1939. I was 4 1/2 years young. I joined the army in 1954 I Rgraduated from Fresno High School. When I returned home in 1958 I knew something was wrong with, at the least, Fresno. I moved to Nevada and from there to Texas. On Christmas day 1960 I arrived in Dallas Texas where I Spent almost 3 miserable years before I moved a bit north. I have 2 brothers and a sister who still live there. Since I moved here I came to realize that I was a sheepdog. Google On /Sheep, Wolves,and Sheepdogs by Dave GRossman for understanding. I believe that most of you commenting here are also sheepdogs. Greetings and consider yourselves well sniffed. LOL so read that article and join the elete. With love from a sheepdog who loves his sheep.
Further greetings if I may. There is a group formed in Denison Texas that I have joined. It is called veto now. vetonow.com. We are attempting to get all the wolves out of office. Since the polls show that the majourity of the people disapprove of what congress is up to, now is the time for us to make the first strike against the left. Party no longer matters. This next election we need to vote for ANYONE WHO IS NOT AN INCUMBANT. I am aware of arguments against this so I will answer these arguments. It matters not if someone just as bad wins. we ahve lost nothing. The newbee will probably not win. However the number of votes for the new candidate does matter. It is the total votes against the incumbant that matters. !n 2012 ther is another election. there will be alarger number of newbees an a better choice. do it again! and so forth. by 2014 all encumbants will be messing their panties. hittup again, harder!
Now we will have a much more compliant group of employees. Didn't realize that they are employees?? Think about it. We hire these people to do our will by voteing for them or not voteing at all. There is a difference between a career politition and a common thief---NOT! All career polititions are liars and thieves. If you were a liar and a thief would you keep your job very long? How long would you stay out of jail. So the point being is to attempt to not vote for a career politition. ofttimes you have to vote for the least of two evils. BUT BE SURE TO VOTE! Seek out those who cannot getthere and get them there. Treat those wou will not vote and are elegible like the blowhole criminals they are. Even if it is your spouse. Kick them out if necessary. everyone will have to make sacrifices and right now it looks like a possible civil war and baby you sure don't want that. With love and concerne.
Yabadabado; I don't know you from Adam, but your post of Jan 1 @ 12:37 smack sof the attitude; Run in the face of adversity! I never have and do not plan on submitting without a fight!
Paladin....CTD's prices are probably competitive, but in addition to paying shipping charges, you will have to pay a substantial, probably 25 bucks, hazardous shipping fee, which makes it a ton cheaper to get it at a brick and mortar store. I bought some gunpowder at another online source and that's what I had to pay. Had I been able to get it at a walk-in store I would have. Also a request: would you charactors read over what you wrote BEFORE you click on "send"? You might find mistakes you want to correct that would make it easier to read.
Cheeper than dirt was the WORST PRICE GOUGER DURING THE KLINTON BAN YEARS =PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM THEM! Hi cap pistol mags over $150.00
Not only ammo, or barrett's gun, if i were companies of anything i wouldn't sell ca jack squat. No cars tires,truck tv's,anything. Ca said they are leading the nation, how much in the hole are they now ,did i hear billions. Ca is the leader of nothing
Let me clarify our position a bit.
Right now, we are selling ammunition to California.
When the law takes effect in January 2011, we will cease ALL ammunition sales to California to any individual, agency, law enforcement or government body.
It’s not that we wouldn’t love to continue selling ammunition, but the restrictions placed on us by the new law would make it impossible. For example: one of the mandates of the new legislation requires us to obtain fingerprints from the purchaser for each and every purchase. This is, of course, impossible to accomplish for our phone sales or internet sales. Based on our reading of the legislation, all internet and phone sales of ammunition will be illegal.
Because of this, and various other restrictions this new law places on ammunition sales, Cheaper Than Dirt! has made the decision to cease all ammunition sales to any individual as well as all law enforcement agencies.
I used to love California... Then when I turned 21 I bought my first gun... Now I can't wait to get outta' here...
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