(Recently I interviewed Matt Baglio, author of The Rite. These are the highlights of the interview.)
PdeC: Prior to writing the book, did you believe in the devil?
MB: I didn’t know what to believe. I didn’t have this fascination with spirits, ghosts or demons at all. I think that really helped me out, because I went in with this real objective approach trying to look at it as a journalist would. Beyond just trying to put it into a Sunday school vernacular, I really wanted to understand, almost from a scientific journalistic standpoint, what are these things, what role do they play?
PdeC: It struck me that Italians accept more the fact of demons and devils existing, than most in the West would, especially Americans.
MB: That’s one of the things that every exorcist brings up, Italians especially. I interviewed one of the exorcists in the book, Father Davies. He’s from England, he spent some time as a missionary in Africa, and he talked about all these cultures having this rich tradition in the idea that spirits exist. They haven’t gotten away from it, so they’re better prepared to deal with these kinds of things, whereas in the western traditions, we’ve written it all off. One of the interesting aspects of the research that I did was when I got into the medicine side of it, in talking to psychiatrists and psychologists, how diverse their approaches and opinions all were. I thought there would be a unified approach to all this, and it wasn’t like that. They don’t have all the answers. In Italy though, as a culture, they’re much more accepting of the idea of spirits and curses and part of it has to do with a lot of superstition. And exorcists see a lot more people because of it.
PdeC: Would you say that Catholics have to be more open-minded to the idea of the Devil, or is this specific to Italian culture?
MB: People should be more aware to the possibility of a spiritual world, but not be so obsessed about it. In this country (America) especially, there’s a real danger to gravitate toward the extremes. But just from a theological standpoint, you take the notion that angels exist, that God exists, that we have a soul, well, you’re immediately believing in a spiritual dimension to reality. And if you believe in a spiritual dimension to reality, it’s not that far of a stretch to imagine that there would be these pure spirits that somehow exist out there and they somehow can affect us. It’s not really a cosmology, but they fit into the natural order of something. If people are so quick to believe in angels, there could be evil spirits as well. One of the things which is important about the Catholic approach is that it does try and put this into a theological perspective. There has to be a logical reason for why these entities exist, how they would operate, and how God would allow it to happen. At least with the Catholic approach, there is this rich history involved with how these spirits would play into the larger role. If these beings exist or if they don’t, at the core of it is still you and your individual relationship with God, and the choices that you make.
PdeC: Which brings up an interesting point. You said it’s also a matter of personal choice. Because of the American intellectual tradition, which is more liberal –
MB: "Relativism" is what you’re talking about. That’s certainly a factor. Existentialism as well. That movement really came about in the sixties and seventies. And it still plays a huge role in individualistic choice. These priests have their own interpretations and their own beliefs and that’s what Father Gary found. He’s been having to talk to priests about the devil and the teachings of the church. He’s amazed that some of them have these different opinions, including bishops. There are many bishops who don’t even believe in the devil. The theology behind exorcism is very central to the notion of good and evil. One of the reasons why exorcism has been so pushed to the side is because it’s been taken over by a lot of these fringe elements, especially in America. They may be well-intentioned, but certain individuals within those movements have taken the idea that the devil and demons are responsible for sins too far to some extent, taken away the personal responsibility of individuals, and made exorcism into a kind of spectacle.
PdeC: From your book, the priests approach exorcism with an almost intellectual methodology – (alleged possession) has to fit certain psychological, emotional and spiritual criteria for it to qualify as being "possession."
MB: Priests have to be circumspect. To some extent, priests still aren’t going far enough. It’s true that a certain group of exorcists, I should say, the process that the Church is trying to put forward, is very good about using psychiatrists and psychologists. I hope exorcists and even priests will look at the book and say ‘we have to look at how we comport ourselves’ in front of these individuals. A psychologist and psychiatrist would recognize immediately how you could influence somebody, and priests don’t. And that’s why the church is really on about them working with competent professionals.
PdeC: Is there a resistance do you think, in a lot of quarters of the Catholic Church toward the push to increase the number of exorcists?
MB: Very much so. To appoint exorcists, yes.
PdeC: Even though it’s come down from the Vatican that there has to be one appointed in an official capacity?
MB: It’s up to the Bishop. They control what happens in the diocese.
PdeC: So the local bishop can, with a wink and a nod, pay lip service to that order?
MB: The Vatican is sending out a letter, saying every diocese should have an exorcist. There’s something like one hundred and eighty-five dioceses in America, so there should be one hundred and eighty-five exorcists. There’s somewhere around fourteen to twenty. That tells you everything. Now, in some dioceses, there’s more than one exorcist, so I think it just goes down to the individual bishop and the needs they feel they have in their own diocese and their own beliefs. According to the exorcists I’ve talked to there are bishops out there who don’t believe in this and won’t appoint an exorcist. And there’s still some circumspection on the side of the Pope. Because Christianity isn’t about exorcism. It’s a part of it, and it’s a small part. Even these exorcists are saying, if it’s a legitimate case, it’s very rare. So we don’t need to go crazy about this and alarm people.
PdeC: Do you believe in an hierarchy of demons, I mean if there’s an hierarchy of angels –?
MB: Every exorcist I’ve talked to says they exist. What I found to be refreshing is that it’s not so sunday school, bullet-pointed, assured that we think it is. There’s a mystery to it. That makes sense to me. If spirits exist, then how can we know everything about them? It just comes down to being a moral person, trying to maintain a connection to God. The devil can tempt you, but it’s still you that makes the decision.
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