On his website, Cesar Millan stated the following:
"I don't know what dogs dream, but they are definitely doing something really fun. Most of the time, their legs are moving, and they're barking. In all my years working with dogs - at one point, I had 65 dogs sleeping with me - I've never seen a dog panicking in the middle of his sleep. They just don't have nightmares like we do. You have to envy that!"
Based on his observations, of sleeping dogs he makes the statement, "They just don't have nightmares like we do."
This is flawed thinking, and is an example of an observation being stated as fact. Many dog training theories are stated as facts when, in fact, they are just observations or assumptions.
To scientifically state that dogs "Do not have nightmares like we do" you would have to define the following:
- What a nightmare is
- What physiological changes occur in a person or dog when they are having a nightmare
- How to measure the physiological changes when a person or dog is sleeping to determine if a person or dog is having a nightmare
If you ever hear someone make a statement about dog behavior, do not believe it because they said it or because they have their own television show. Push them for research or ask about the science behind their statement. It is much different to have a theory or make an observation versus having proof.
Examples of statements that are widely used include:
- Walk through doorways before your dog or he will think he is the boss
- Eat before your dog or he will think he is the boss
- A dog that is pulling is trying to dominate you
- A dog that mounts you or another dog is trying to be dominant
- Your dog "knows what to do" but is ignoring you
- Your dog is stubborn
- Dogs just want to please people
- Playing tug causes aggression
Each of these statements might be true, but the statements have not been proven. Many trainers and dog owners have said things like this over the years so many times that they are part of the normal dog training lexicon. But, just because something is repeated many times does not make it true.
The earth is flat, right?
Comments
I love Cesar, but do not agree with his statement about dogs not having nightmares. We rescued a beagle three years ago. He was in very bad shape at the time, having been terribly abused. Every night for the first six months, this dog would cry, whimper, and growl in his sleep. He thrashed around and had a terrible time. I gently woke him, soothed him (he was in a crate - refused to sleep out of it at that time). He had a traumatic experience & I know he was having bad dreams. Now, he is happy, healthy, & loved. He is safe, but every once in a while, he starts to cry softly in his sleep (he loves his dog bed now). I call to him and tell him it's all right and that he's a good boy. Yes, dogs have nightmares - we experienced it firsthand.
Some veterinarians believe sleep disturbances are a precurser to seizures.
Tracy - Nashville Natural Pet Care and Training Examiner
I have two adopted dogs that had been abused. The first, a gun dog, was "trained" with an electric shock collar. For the first year she was with us she had nightmares every time she slept.
Our second abused dog is a beagle/poodle cross who was kept on a chain. In her case, she wakes up from a sound sleep snapping, snarling and biting. I believe it's because a female dog on a chain is extremely vulnerable. She probably never got a good night's sleep on the chain. We've had her a year and the nightmare incidents have decreased a lot. She sleeps in the bed under the covers by my feet!
Hahaha, I love your title. I personally am not a fan of Cesar and his training tactics as I believe they can be extremely harmful for pets that have serious behavior problems. I like that you are trying to get poeple to think about things people say instead of just accepting them for fact.
Erin, How is Cesar's tactics harmful to dog with severe behavior issues? They aren't harmful, they are HELPFUL. He does nothing but help dogs overcome their issues and has many different tactics and adapts to each dog. Obviously you don't watch him enough to understand that. He does great work and really works with the animals side of the dog, unlike other trainers who humanize the dogs and don't get in touch with the true animal.
My dog is fine with humans when he is eating from his food bowl, but if there is another dog around, he gives the stare and has went after another dog. How do you stop that? I want my dog to be able to eat out of the same bowl or lick of the same plate with a dog.
Also to dogs won't take food in all occasions, sometimes when they are excited or scared they won't take a treat, so clicker training, positive reinforcement doesn't always work.
They aren't that bad. I've put one around my neck and had it snapped and it didn't even hurt. I'm a human and have thin skin, a dogs neck is thicker and made to be bitten, so if it didn't hurt me, it's definitely not going to hurt a dog IF USED PROPERLY.
Do you agree with free feeding?
I usually free feed my dog when he is the only dog I'm watching, but if there are other dogs I'm watching, I'll take the food away and make sessions out of eating. I won't leave the food there for them all since it has started fights before.
Leroy - In response to your comment, I have actually watched a fair amount of Cesar's show. The reason I have watched his show is that as a veterinarian I have heard from multiple colleges that his tactics are harmful to animals with serious behavioral issues. If you really think his tactics are useful, I would advise consulting with a veterinary behaviorist who has gone through 7 years of school to learn how to appropriately rehabilitate animals. Veterinary behaviorists, and many if not most, veterinarians disagree with his tactics of using fear and dominance with an aggressive animal. Using his methods could potentially escalate a bad situation into a much more dangerous one. If you have an animal with serious behavioral issues, consult with a board certified veterinary behaviorist, not a tv show.
Here's the thing, everyone says, "it could escalate" "it could this" "it could that" but you know what? IT DOESN'T! Obviously his tactics work and doesn't create a worse dog as you all suggest!
He doesn't create fear in the dog, I don't know what the hell you are watching? Your perception if way off, obviously.
Ever see him rehab a feared dog? He is so gentle and builds nothing but trust with the dog.
With an aggressive dog he is very calm and when he puts the dog on its side, he'd NOT being rough with the dog, actually after he put the dog on its side, the dog QUICKLY CALMS DOWN!
So everyone with their "it's horrible for the dog and makes them worse" are whining at nothing!
Cesar's been working with dogs for 20+ years, if it was so bad he wouldn't have made it in this business.
You proved my point how everyone is jealous! You said see a veterinary behaviorist and NOT A TV SHOW! MY POINT PROVEN!
Everyone is JEALOUS of him! He is a professional behaviorist.
I think everyone is jealous especially all the so called "experts/vets" because Cesar is proving that his way works and goes against what all the so called "experts/vets" say.
I love Cesar, because he is in tune with the ANIMAL. Animal, Dog, Breed then name in that order. He is so in tune with nature that it angers the "medical" people off.
Everyone else just works with the dog and not the animal in the dog. Cesar is the best!!!!
EVERY DOG in his pack was a "bad dog" and had MAJOR ISSUES! Look at them now! They are so calm and well behaved and help with rehabbing other unbalanced dogs.
So the proof is in the pudding! His tactics work and do more good than bad! FACT!
I don't see why Cesar "rolling or pinning" is so bad!?
First HE DOESN'T DO IT "ALL THE TIME"
Second has anyone ever seen more than 1 dog interact before? If you watch 2, 3, 4 dogs etc.. Interact with each other, they'll snap, growl at each other and usually one of the dogs will submit and rollover and will show respect to the other dog.
Now is that in the dogs nature? Is that a natural response? YES RIGHT?! If it is, then what's wrong with Cesar using a dogs natural instincts to help him? NOTHING!!!
People are just so ignorant and can't accept someone else being successful.
Basically all you positive reinforcement/clicker trainers are saying is that the submissive dog should have handed the aggressive dog a treat when the dog DIDN'T snap at him when he walked by right? Cesar interacts with a dog as if Cesar himself is a dog.
So seriously are submissive dogs suppose to walk around with treats and clickers and give it to the dogs with issues? And give the dog with an issue a treat every time it does something good?
That's basically what you teach. Cesar's teaches TRUE Animal/dog psychology.
Don't people watch the show? You all complain about the prong collars/pinch collars/chokers etc.. but He doesn't really use prong collars that much only if that is what the owner has. He'll either use what the owner has, or a 10 cent leash or his Illusion collar. Some people will just try and find anything to put a man down.
I agree that dogs have nightmares. Our dog was terribly abused before we got him. He experienced night terrors, waking in a panic, and jumping up to bang into walls. He also experienced a broad range of dreaming, from whimpering, whining, and running dreams, to dreams where he thumped his tail and actually looked pleased beneath his closed eyes! Ceasar is good, and does use 'dog sense' when correcting poor training habits, but a little more research is needed into the dream state.
Joey: a good positive reinforcement trainer understands the science behind dog training and uses prove methods including desensitization and counter conditioning. If done properly, giving a treat when a dog encounters something, you can create a positive association to replace or counter a negative association.
Cesar interacts with dogs as if he is a dog? He isn't a dog, so how does he or you know that he is acting like how a dog would act?
He teaches true animal/dog psychology? There isn't an accredited program out there that teaches dog psychology. And, he uses very outdated methods including flooding (look it up if you need to) that can cause really nasty side effects such as learned helplessness or generalized fear.
Joey: rolling or pinning a dog is considered very outdated and potentially counter-productive because it puts an already stressed out dog into a more vulnerable position. Is a dog going to get more comfortable with the stimulus that was presented to him if he growls and then gets rolled? If an animal is in panic mode, you can't just tell him to "calm down".
I have gotten a few calls over the years from people that rolled an aggressive dog and then got bitten in the face.
Leroy, you know it is a tv show that can be edited, right? Do you think he would put a dog into his "pack" that wasn't acting appropriately for the camera? Do you think he magically solves all issues?
Whether someone is a dog trainer, a psychologist, a doctor or a teacher, I respect them when they talk about making mistakes or doing something wrong or having a case that wasn't "fixable".
Mistakes are part of learning. I am very suspect of people that seem to magically solve all problems in a nice, short period of time.
Everyone else works with the dog and not the animal in the dog? What are you talking about?
He doesn't create fear in the dog? Not every interaction, but I have seen dogs so worked up that they are bug-eyed and spitting. That is not fear created by over-stimulation?
He has been working with dogs for 20+ years and that proves that his methods are okay? Just because people follow someone does not mean that they are correct. Have you heard of Bernie Madoff
Joey: he is not a behaviorist, he does not have a Ph.D. in animal behavior. That is the only way to call someone that, FYI.
I think that everyone who is so worked up might want to re-read this article. It is a discussion about observations vs. proof. I am not hearing a lot of proof in your comments.
"And, he uses very outdated methods including flooding (look it up if you need to) that can cause really nasty side effects such as learned helplessness or generalized fear."-Jeff
that's what you said. Here we go again. You say "CAN CAUSE" well obviously IT HASN'T CAUSED any bad side effects with the dogs he works with.
Everyone keeps say, "it can" or "it will" but IT DOESN'T!
Hey Jeff, have you ever read Cesar's book? Obviously not! He says in his book that there were only 2 dogs that he just couldn't rehabilitate.
So you think positive reinforcement will override a negative encounter? So next time my dog is growling at another dog, I should give him a treat right? You're telling me if I give him a treat at that time, he'll focus more on a positive than it being a negative? BULL!
FIRST THE DOG WON'T EVEN TAKE THE TREAT!
I know what you are going to say,"Well you have to do it in steps, start from really far far away and start giving him treats that way.
Sorry, imo it's better to work w/o treats. Treats should only be used as a last resort. Dogs in packs don't just give each other treats, do they? NOT THAT I LAST REMEMBER!
Cesar doesn't harm the dogs! If he does why haven't you guys got him off the air? Why doesn't everyone show up at his facility and demand he stop? Because you know he is great, you know his way works!
You guys act like, he rolls, floods, ALL THE TIME! He doesn't!
Just because his way is the "old way" doesn't mean it's not right! Just because people came up with an alternative doesn't mean his way is the "WRONG WAY".
Oh and by the way, he has shown dogs that he has brought in his pack that have caused fights and shown even scenes where "his dog started" the fight! So you're editing theory is way off. Of course they edit, but they don't just show the good stuff.
You guys need to really lay off Cesar. The real people you should be mad at are the KILL shelters NOT CESAR!
I would love to see you guys face Cesar. He would put you all to shame and prove that his ways works, just as good or even better than you're clicker/ training approach.
I read one of your articles where you say, "you wouldn't put an aggressive dog in the room where the front door is when guest come over, you'd put it in a different room"
I don't get it. Avoidance DOESN'T HELP! If you leave the dog out and let the doorbell ring, then you can work with the dog, block him from going to the front door and create a boundary. Your dog will respect you more.
If you just lock him up, then every time the dog hears the doorbell, HE'LL GET EVEN MORE ANXIOUS since he hears the doorbell and knows he is going to get locked up.
I disagree with that tactic. You have to hit the problem square on, NOT AVOID IT! The only way the dog will learn not to do a behavior is for the dog TO DO THE BEHAVIOR.
Now when correcting the dog, you don't have to be MEAN, PHYSICAL with the dog. You can correct the problem w/o using treats or even MEDICATION as you suggest.
Medication are you serious? GEEZ!
You can create a calm atmosphere for the dog when people come over without using food. I could explain more, but I just stated the basics.
Jeff,
Thanks for another great article. Yes, show me the proof please for any of the rubbish going around about dog training, dominance theory or even the reality of "reality" television. I am tired of hearing all the myths from the average Joe (and from these cult-like followers of Cesar) who are often quoting Cesar verbatim without first doing any research OR having the faintest notion of stress signals in dogs (especially in light of the fact that we see so many stress signals in the poor dogs being assaulted on his show). It is really no different than the myth of the 'locking jaw in pit bulls'...no, that is also a myth yet I still meet people who will tell me about a pit bulls locking jaw.
I actually find it quite sad that we live in a country with so many well respected academic institutions, yet so much of the population refuse to pick up a book to do any research for themselves. Oh, and watching reruns of the Dog Whisperer does not count as research.
Faith, what you and Jeff fail to realize is that, Yes the dogs might be stressed but that is ONLY TEMPORARY. No matter what you do EVEN CLICKER/POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT training the dog will be stressed. Jeff you can't tell me you never had a dog stressed before?
The whole point of rehabilitating is to get rid of that stress that the dog is experience in that moment. Eventually Cesar's rehabs the dog and the stress is gone the next the dog is in that moment.
So OH MY GOD THE DOG WAS STRESSED for a day! It's not the end of the world. It's funny how it's okay for humans to be stressed, but IT'S ANIMAL CRUELTY if an animal is stressed for a little bit.
Don't you ever watch the results? The dogs are great and not stressed anymore. EVEN THE OWNERS SAY there dogs are doing great a few months after the show. BUT IT'S ALL FAKE RIGHT? IT'S ALL TV MAGIC!
Ha well why isn't Victoria the clicker trainer's show not tv magic? WHY? HMMMMM SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES TO ME!
Faith - Well put.
Jeff - I apologize that my comment about Cesar has apparently overshadowed the entire point of your article and turned your comment board into a Cesar-fest. At least the multiple hits are earning you cash!
Leroy - I think you should calm down and accept the fact that not everyone agrees with your the end justifies the means training tactics. Agree to disagree and move on.
Well you CAN'T say the prong collar is mean! If it is, then why is my dog so happy when I bring it out? If was used as a negative, don't you think my dog wouldn't want me to put it on him? Guess all your thinking is wrong? Right!? Right!
So it's obviously flawed thinking in saying that physical training will make your dog have less of a bond with you.
Of course if you are mean and abusive it will have a bad effect, but just cuz you use prong collar or some physical touch it doesn't mean your dog will have less of a bond with you.
Jeff you always say "proof" or Scientific evidence. WEll I have proof that my dog does opposite of what you say will happen if you use touch or prong collar.
I can get on all fours and my dog responds to my body language and touch so well. Like I'll put my neck and head over his body and he'll submit to me. Not because he is scared, but because he understands that I'm the dominant one. Being dominant doesn't mean I'm mean to him, it just means I'm the one in control of everything. He doesn't challenge me. He respects me.
I'll also submit to him to keep him interested and motivated to keep playing so he doesn't get frustrated.
When I play with him, it's the same way I've seem him playing with other dogs. Touch is a BIG PART of play and bonding.
Anyone who says the know what's in the mind of another being, either asleep or awake shows how little they really know. No one can know what an animal dreams or thinks because they cannot tell us. As for Ceasar, just ask real animal behaviorist what they think of him and you will find that they want nothing to do with him. His methods are out dated and scientifically proven to do harm and show that he is not a good trainer.
It's so funny that you all say Cesar does harm, but how are all the rehabilitated after he is done with them? Why aren't the dogs worse after he gets through with them?
It's funny how "real" behaviorist don't like him, but yet they are the ones who SUGGEST putting dogs down, while Cesar doesn't. I would put Cesar against any behaviorist and I put you Cesar would have more success with that dog.
Also the "real" behaviorist are all just jealous that Cesar is making big and they aren't. Again doesn't matter if a million people hate 1 person, it doesn't mean that 1 person is wrong. If a million people jump off the bridge and one person doesn't, that doesn't mean the million people were right.
And you all talk about lawsuits, well look at what it really is:
"On May 5, 2006, Flody Suarez, a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules, filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his Labrador retriever had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.[7] National Geographic released a statement that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident. Millan has also claimed that Suarez's personal dog trainer was with the dog, Gator, while it was at the Dog Psychology Center and that he did not charge for use of the facilities. He allowed the trainer to bring Gator to the center as a favor. The hearing was cancelled, since a settlement (the terms of which were not made public) was reached on March 29, 2007"
Cesar wasn't even there with the treadmill incident and it WAS the owners own personal trainer that put the dog on the treadmill.
Haha, the TRUTH COMES OUT!
Here is proof that the "experts" are all full of it. You all say that CM's way are HARMFUL. That they do more damage than good. Well by that theory shouldn't the Michael Vick dogs be so damaged that they should have no chance to live? I mean you those dogs were abused and forced to fight, yet, the judge ordered those dogs to be rehabilitated and look what happened.
They only had to to put 2 of the dogs down. All the rest of the FIGHTING dogs were rehabbed and are now THERAPY DOGS, or dogs that found good homes. Don't you think those dogs should have no chance in hell to be rehabbed since you all say that CM's way are so harmful, yet the way those dogs were treated was way worse than CM's techniques.
If CM's techniques are so bad, then fighting dogs by all the "experts" standards would have no chance to ever be cured since they would be SO SCARRED!
That's proof right there that if a fighting dog can be fixed, CM's way does BARELY ANY HARM to the dogs.
Johnny, you are missing a VERY BASIC concept. A dog can be harmed and still rebound from it. Dogs are very resilient animals.
Your argument is ridiculous. Just because a dog looks like he is okay, DOES NOT mean that he wasn't harmed in the first place. My argument is that harming a dog in any way is not appropriate or necessary.
Just because you personally have used physical methods and you follow others that do the same and it seems to work for you does not mean that you can't achieve the same results by not being physical to a dog. If you could train a dog and not be physical at all and get the same results, wouldn't you want to do that? Well, Johnny, you can. It just seems like you don't know how to do that.
Just because someone can be physical with a dog and then the dog wags his tail towards that same person, doesn't negate the fact that the dog might have been subjected to pain, fear or discomfort. Understand?
Does that make sense, Johnny?
Jeff I do know how to to use treats/clicker training, but just, I "touch" my dog, not hitting, a tap on the neck to redirect him, that is NOT harmful to the dog. Me touching the dog on the neck isn't causing harm to him, or making him be fearful.
You can be physical with your dog and not be harmful. Like I play with my dog where I'm on all fours and I'll put an arm on the back of the dog and sometimes I'll put my head and neck over my dog and he'll submit for me. I'm not being harmful to him, we are playing and have an interaction where we take turns and who pins who on the ground.
Do dogs use physical touch? Do they? YES! Does that mean they are harming each other? NO!
Putting a dog on it's side doesn't automatically make the dog scared or harmed.
Hmmm, I guess CM's dog "Daddy" should be taken away eh? I mean he grew up with CM and yet he one of the most perfect dogs out there. Obviously CM's techniques DIDN'T harm or scar the dog.
Johnny, you just touch your dog, great. Do you think flooding is appropriate? If you were afraid of spiders, would you think a psychologist that threw spiders on you, and held you down would be conducting the appropriate treatment? That is what flooding is and I don't think it is appropriate.
I don't care about "CM" only. I don't fixate on him, or lose sleep over him. I only used him as an example of someone that says things with no basis of proof behind his comments and uses a methodology that I fundamentally don't agree with.
I find it interesting that people defend him so voraciously, when there are proven methods that differ so widely from his techniques and they have been used by people all over the world for decades. Sad.
Your arguments are off point.
"Do dogs use physical touch? Do they? YES! Does that mean they are harming each other? NO!" So what? What is your point?
I never said touching a dog is bad: "My argument is that harming a dog in any way is not appropr
I agree harming a dog isn't good.
CM has been doing it for over 20 years, so it's not like he's new.
You're the reason I started working with the clicker with my dog and it is a great tool, but I don't always have it on me.
I personally don't think flooding is wrong. I've used it three times. Twice on dogs that the owners said were afraid to go down the stairs in their house. Well I just put the leash on the dogs and gave a little tug and the quickly walked down the stairs. I was surprised, at how fast it worked, but I think it was mild flooding since the dogs were babied and it showed at how fast the technique worked.
The 3rd time was a dog that wouldn't walk on a leash since fireworks went off and it freaked out. For 2 years the dog wouldn't go on a leash outside in the front yard. After about 30 minutes of it bucking like a horse, the dog did all the moving, I just stood there and I let it drain it's energy. Eventually I was able to move a few feet at a time..........
then I was able to get it to walk up and down the block with me.
The next the day the owner came to my house and thanked me. He was out there with his dog walking around with it where he hasn't done that in over 2 years.
I admit to the average person it didn't look good with the dog bucking around, but I tried treats and toys and the dog refused it. Eventually the dog got over it and started walking with and now the dog is able to walk with his owner.
I think flooding is fine and the only way to overcome it is to just jump right into it. You even said yourself that dogs overcome things very easily. So I'll sacrifice a dog being scared for an hour or so, if that means that the dog will not be scared the next time we do the exercise. Dogs MOVE on faster than humans do.
I said CM has been doing it for 20 years, I mean that he has been training dogs for 20 years. I don't CM harms the dogs. If he did his dogs wouldn't be as stable as they are.
First, I would like to congratulate Mr. Dunbar for his academic achievements and all other accomplishments. Secondly, I'd like to express my concern for our societal prejudices concerning definition of success. I whole heartedly believe that education does not equal success. There are many uneducated people who are more successful than those who have a degree. I am not saying education is unnecessary, because education does make a difference, but we should not be bitter towards those who do not have PhD's and have climbed ladders we have not. I admire those in Cesar's shoes; despite all the odds they are successful. No average Joe Schmoe can accomplish what Cesar Milan has in the amount of time he's done it. He is a driven, focused individual who was determined to accomplish his goal of helping people and their pets and it is unfair to discredit him for the reason of education. Should we be upset with him because he had goals and reached them without the hassles of education?
Hmmmm very interesting about the man who supposedly knows it all about dogs. At the 8:30ish mark he says he worked with a dog that is now EUTHANIZED. Hmmmmm, if he knows every thing about dogs and is such a great trainer, why couldn't he fix the dog? I bet you CM could have fixed the dog!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOW0IKO_zfM
Damn and then in this video the dog is half the time not even paying attention to the Dunbar. As a trainer that dog should be focused on him way more than that.
I'm not really impressed by him at all!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdDVZAA2K8o&feature=related
this article is just not very professional
Elly,
I am all for constructive criticism, but your comment is not constructive. I would be thrilled if you elaborated on your feelings a bit more.
I assume Jeff was just trying to get people to think and question. Based on this discussion, I think his goal has been accomplished!
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