I have often argued that Child Protective Services and the police are guilty of abusing children. I don't mean they are guilty of abuse when they take children from homes where the parents have sexually and physically abused them, or where children have been neglected through starvation and the like. What I mean is that when children are taken from innocent parents, which happens a lot more than the public realizes, they are often abused.
I will be writing some more about this in the coming weeks. Today, however, I wanted to focus on how Child Protective Services and the police traumatize children during the removal process. Can you imagine being four years old or eight years old or even a teenager, and a number of cops and/or Child Protective Services investigators show up at your house. Your parents have done nothing wrong. They have never hurt or neglected you. Yet here is a big cop with a gun, handcuffs and a taser. You start crying. Your mother or father naturally get upset because you are being taken. The cops then threaten your parents. Finally, the cops drag you to the police car, kicking and screaming.
What does that do to a child's psyche? How long does that stay in a child's mind? What does it teach children about cops and social workers?
This does not just happen to children during child removal processes. In Amsterdam, New York, the police went on a drug raid, broke the door of a house down, terrorized the mother and her children, and then they found out they had the wrong house. The woman sued the city and won. No doubt she had to use some of the money to get therapy for her children.
In Schenectady, New York, the police were looking for a young marijuana dealer. They thought he was in an apartment, so they busted in, handcuffed children, shot the family dog even though it was so scared it was peeing on the floor, and the person they were looking for was not even in the house. I can imagine what that did to those children.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video is worth a thousand pictures. Here are just a few videos which show children being taken from their parents and what effect it has on the parents and children.
The first video is a recent one from April 2009. I am not sure why the cops are taking the kids in this one, but it is obvious they don't want to go.
When the State of Texas took children from a FLDS community in Texas based on a false report, they used tanks. (The last child from this case was just reunited with his family last week).
The following video shows the Tacoma, Washington police taking a woman's children in 2008 without any paperwork. They threaten to arrest her because she, quite naturally, gets upset that they are taking her kids.
The removal of children from innocent parents, without due process, doesn't just happen in the United States. It happens in all western nations. Here is an example from Poland.
And an example from Australia
And one from Bulgaria
Taking children from families, without due process, and in many cases when the parents have done nothing wrong, is a widespread phenomenon in the western world. It is child abuse. Nothing more. Nothing less. In part two of this series, I will discuss how children are sometimes abused during the interrogation process.
Copyright 2009 Daniel T. Weaver. Publishing this aricle in its entirety on any website, including blogs, is both unethical and illegal. Permission is granted to repost the first two paragraphs of this article as long as you include a link to this page. Thank you for cooperating in this matter.
Comments
You said: "When the State of Texas took children from a FLDS community in Texas based on a false report, they used tanks. (The last child from this case was just reunited with his family last week)."
- They used APCs, not tanks. An APC is not a tank.
- The last child from the YFZ ranch case was a 15-year-old girl. Her parents are accused of letting her be married at just 12 years old to Warren Jeffs. She is now living with a family member - her parents have visitation rights only.
Thanks for the correction on the APC. I guess I didn't look at the photo close enough. I had read the other day that the last child had been reunited, but I could be wrong about that. In any event, the raid should never have taken place, and I am absolutely opposed to the FLDS and to polygamy. The raid harmed more children than it helped.
One more comment about the FLDS. A call came in about one child. The call was made by a woman who was lying when she made the call. Obviously, CPS did not know that she was lying at the time. Nevertheless, they should never have taken all of the children from every home in the FLDS community (they did not live in one building), instead of just the one child that the hotline call was made about.
Hi. What really bothers me is the people that make these false reports. Maybe some do or do not know the damage they can cause from making a false report. By using CPS and the cops to get even with someone is one the most evilest thing one can do. I had CPS in my life for one year and I am glad to say it is finally over, but it is just so dehumanizing. I know that not everyone is not as fortunate as myself with CPS when dealing with CPS. God bless every innocent victim!
correction, duane, her biological mother has supervised visitation only and her biological father has no visitation rights. this was an AGREED order because it was the best the parents could hope for. Twelve adult men have been indicted so far, and there is a wealth of evidence of wrongdoing. Few, if any, of the children should have been returned.
For more info see texasflds.wordpress.com. Get the FACTS and public records to see for yourself. CPS and the state troopers did an incredibly sensitive job of removing and caring for an unbelievable number of children in this case. This story does not belong in your article.
Yeah, I hardly think with the evidence Texas has on the men and women of the FLDS anyone should be holding them up as an "innocent" example, or as "victims" of Texas CPS, who did their jobs.
Maybe in the world of someone who likes to defend child molesters and abusers their case would be useful.
Maybe someone would like to explain the documented evidence of rape and forced motherhood on multiple little girls, or the ceremonial bed in their "temple", complete with crib railing and steps [for the little ones?].
To the reporter: Please educate yourself, sir. This isn't the case you want to try to champion innocent parent's rights on. At trial, these people are going to make Tony Alamo look like a saint.
duane,
Thanks for the "Tank correction" - This guy must have been reading Truthwillfail, huh?
Also, Merril gets no visitation with MJ at all, and Babs, supervised two hour visits.
Both pay child support and health insurance.
Both have signed off so there will not be a trial. However, I do appreciate this last post as its as seasoned and reasoned as any I've seen.
==================
Dan,
Boots is right - this certainly shouldnt be your "poster child" for whats wrong with CPS - unless you want to show how CPS has failed hundreds of children. They were on the right track, until upset by the SCOT in narrow decision.
When you have a fenced commune with systemic sexual abuse, its never a good place for children. OK, SCOT was correct (perhaps) that young children under 10 werent in immediate danger - but its been shown that girls 12 and over were preyed upon, especially amongst the leaders.
Again Boots nailed it, these guys will make Tony look like a beginner.
Also why dont you look at the list of Polygamist child abusers if you are going to follow this tack - there is ample material.
Warren Jeffs - CONVICTED
Tony Alamo - CONVICTED
Wayne Bent - CONVICTED
Yahweh Hawkins - CONVICTED
No child was ever safe around these perps.
They've all been convicted and sit in prison.
Dan, as a person who lives in Texas and not so far from YFZ ranch. If you were really interested in what CPS did, you would of read the documentation. But since you evidently didn't, let me fill you in on a couple of issues. First, there ended up being 4 sara's at the ranch, one even named Sara Barlow, although she was much older than the person who called as you call it, the "hoax" caller.
Second, CPS didn't take all the children the first night. What CPS saw the first night, was enough probable cause to then take all the children. There were 12 girls underage who were pregnant, or already had children. To be blunt Dan, this was a breeding ranch for babies.
Girls taken from parents in other states to Texas to become wives of Older men.
You talk about trauma caused by CPS or Police officals. Well Dan, what about girls 12yrs old who have no say in being married to a man 30yrs her senior? Not having been taught anything about sex, and told her husband would teach her? CPS has done some bad things, on that I will agree. But in the case of FLDS, CPS was right! What is hard to understand is this for me. Who STOPPED the CPS investigations into this cult? I would really like to know Dan, because it wasn't Texas CPS, it came from higher up than even the governor of Texas.
Let me ask you a question Dan. If I know of a parent who beats the crap out of her two and three year daily because they don't eat all the food on their plate or because they won't sleep when she orders them to. Should I call and report it, or allow this mother to continue in the pattern she is using now?
Wrong agains duane,
Her mother has very limited visitation rights. Her fathewr has none.
Maddy, If you had read paragraph one, you would know the answer to your questions. People who beat or injure their children should be turned in. You hopefully are intelligent enough to know that without me telling you.
From all the reports I read, Rozita Swinton made the call to Texas in the FLDS case, pretending to be a young girl.
Check out Newsweek's article or any number of other articles about Rozita Swinton.
For someone so close to the case, you seem to not know very much about it. But then the being able to read and literacy are not always the same thing.
The damage done to children put into care is immense - and far outweighs that of mum who runs a "chaotic lifestyle" and doesn't wash up the dishes straight away.
The majority of children in care leave with no qualifications or education.
20% of the girls either are pregnant at 16 years, or have already had children.
Many will end up in prison.
This is not the "best interests of the child".
If the public knew about the 13 years old girls selling themselves for sex in care homes, to get cigarettes, you'd change your mind about calling in social workers.
Unless extreme daily neglect or beatings are taking place, don't make the call.
The problems with social workers are in the UK/US/Israel/Australia.
The way the system works is a systemic failure. The more we talk about it openly, the sooner we will expose the misery it inflicts on children.
To call in social workers is abuse the children. Social workers are the bad guys, I know the public will need time to adjust to this, but the denial can't continue much longer.
Dan the sole APC was not put into use during the initial, first day of the YFZ Ranch removal. It was a cautionary use to aid removal if a Waco Branch Davidian situation had developed, thankfully it did not. Weapons were found in the Temple of caliber range up to .50 caliber which could have been able to pierce the APC protective plating. On the second day the APC was brought onto the YFZ Ranch but was never employed during the removal. Contingency planning given the Branch Davidian Waco scenario was defensive and plausible. Your article reference to the YFZ Raid is half cocked and misleading. Only two Texas Ranger arrests were made and no injuries occurred from forceful actions with a hidden population of over 550+ adults and children total residents. The last child was released, namely Merrianne Jessop, to the custody of Naomi Carlisle a relative whom lives in Texas.
California Jim. You seem to be missing the point here. The whole raid must have been traumatizing to the children, most of whom had not been abused at all. It was wrong to take all of the children, instead of just those who purportedly were being abused. Those children were unnecesarily traumatized.
I don't think I am the one here that is half cocked. It is people like you who only half read the article and then read your own prejudices into it.
Dan the YFZ Ranch resulted in three (3) served search warrants the first was in reference to a teen named as Jessica Barlow and/or her supposed husband Dale Evans Barlow, a convicted sex abuser. The second search warrant was issued based upon teen girls observed to be pregnant, with babies and a broadened search for records that was then warranted. The third search warrant was a Federal issuance by the FBI whom did appear and remove items from the Temple location, further information on this search warrant is pending. You article is accurate if only the first search warrant was issued but a total of three(3)search warrants were issued and your comment above is incorrect.
The FLDS Church doesn't seem to receiving any nof it's due criticisms as to what caused the YFZ Removal and why 550+ residents were living covertly on the ranch to begin with. Yes the situation escalated to a traumatizing event but how, who, why did all these fanatical congregation members come to reside on the ranch to begin with. If you are reporting this story do it accurately and with your facts straight or run the risk of your professionalism and accusations from an informed Public will comment away on your sloppy and biased reporting. The Bishop F. Merril Jessop disappeared from the YFZ Ranch after the search warrants were served along with most of the other men (Fathers) and no reporting has been done on that event. Presently, there are 12 men under indictment for a total of 27 charges, sounds more like an organized crime wave to me, what do you think?
CORRECTION : the first search warrant was for a "Sarah" Barlow versus the given and incorrect Jessica Barlow.
"the ceremonial bed in their "temple", complete with crib railing and steps [for the little ones?]."
Oh, please! You know as well as I do that if CPS had found any abuse at all they wouldn't have returned every single child. The last child was returned to relatives instead of the parents becuase Barbara wouldn't agree to CPS' terms.
The examinations they did on the 500 terrified chilren to see if they had been abused was abusive in itself. This will traumatize every child for the rest of thier lives.
Opened up a real can of worms here, haven't we Dan.
Of course CPS found abuse. That's why 12 men from YFZ have been indicted. (That's nearly a QUARTER of the adult male population at the YFZ raunch for you folks keeping track at home.)
Every single mother from YFZ has had to take parenting classes and sign agreements that they will protect their children from abuse (in the future, at least.) The children were given information on how to identify and report abuse. Apparently they didn't have this info before.
Astonishing the Temple bed is evidentry, why would DNA or the bed itself be evidence? They're will be more on the Temple and it's contents when the trials begin but you seem to be playing a little further back than most informed readers concerning the YFZ Raunch. Do you know why 439 children were moved upon the YFZ Ranch from the homestead area in Short Creek area of Utah? Uprooting children from two states away on such a large scale to me is a puzzling development. Why the Texas Exodus?
Dan, How much trauma is associated with uprooting 439 children from the ancesteral homestead in Hildale/Colorado City and being taken to West Texas to live in a guarded YFZ Raunch were teen girls from menses or 12,13,14,15 Years of age are celestially wed to men in their 20s, 30s, 40s & 50s as plural wives?
Melissa Delgaudio said: "I had CPS in my life for one year and I am glad to say it is finally over, but it is just so dehumanizing. I know that not everyone is not as fortunate as myself with CPS when dealing with CPS."
Melissa, in most states once CPS has been involved in your life, you are in their records forever. Even if any and all accusations are PROVEN false.
And it is dehumanizing. It seems to me that the goal of CPS/social workers is to take all human emotion out of family interaction. It seems the removal of a child from a family is oftentimes done in the most traumatic way possible - it is the legal equivalent of stranger kidnapping, and leaves permanent emotional scars.
Maddy:
Let's see Ranger Long gave false testamony to get a search warrant. CPS lied about the ages of people and kidnapped 20 adults. The Appeals court said Texas had no evidence of child abuse, the only case left currently is a fictious case of a failure to protect. The subject the child needs protection from (Jeffs) is in prison in Utah and being tried in AZ for similar crimes. The parents need to protect her? Are they not to take her to visit him? I'm certain that a plan that said that she wouldn't be taken to Jeffs in prison could have been implemented. However, CPS wanted a broader protection for contrary to fact conditions. Walthers and the CPS people should be in Texas prison for life: she and they knew when they testified that those IDs were higher grade evidence than the CPS workers non-expert guesses (which shouldn't be allowed in as they're not experts on age determining). Since I consider kidnapping of adults to be a much greater crime: when are those trials?
Why don't all of you who are justifying CPS' action in the FLDS case take a look at the supreme court ruling.
CPS was in violation of the US constitution.
They didn't just take kids who were abused, they took everybody's kids.
JMR/Chicana The San Angelo Grand Jury has indicted 12 FLDS Church members of mostly felony(s) ranging from Statutory Rape of nine(9) Minor teen girls along with bigamy charges and various other charges that Total 27 indictments.
Trials are set to begin for the first two men in October of this year, namely Raymond Jessop and Allen Keates, and will run until 2011 to bring all of the indictments. The Texas attorney General's Office is handling the prosecutions and the evidence taken from the YFZ Ranch is presently under a 'Motion to Suppress' with a ruling expected soon.
Can either of you explain to me how 439 children came to be covertly sequestered on the YFZ Ranch and local authorities had been told that the resident population was around 125 adults and children, on the first day of the search warrant the Bishop Jessop revised the residents to be more than 150 persons and a few days later when the good Bishop was served he said the Total population was over 250+people,actual = 550
Dan, if you are new to the FLDS tempest be aware that Maddy and her friends are part of an organized hate group calling themselves "The Kindred Spirits". They mix truthful information and statistics liberally with misinformation and ourtright lies. They are part of Rozita's cheering section, some CPS, some bitter ex-FLDS, some jealous Eldorado neighbors, and manhating feminist types, they are obsessed with their thwarted destruction of the YFZ and gang together to harass any author, citizen or politician who expresses anything but vengeful satisfation at the heavy handed tactics of of law enforcement and the child protective industry. There are quite a few of them, but everyone of them is a troll. They scream "child abuse" but they have no empathy for the children and completely misinterpret the religious beliefs of the FLDS. Don't take them seriously - some of their information is accurate - but their interpretation of that information spiced with lies and laced with slander.
CPS must realize the tide is turning against them, thanks to excellent reporting such as Daniel Weaver's. There are a great many CPS agents who spend their time spreading lies and trying to counter the truth. But the truth will out. The tidal wave of outrage is growing, and once the world - and CPS is all over the world - realizes the depth and breadth of these horrific crimes against babies, children and families, there will be hell to pay. Nuremberg will look like Judge Judy in comparison. Keep up the good work, Daniel, and all others who work to expose this corrupt and supremely evil gang of thugs who call themselves Child Protectors.
There have been at least two cases in Canada where the police, working with CPS, have tasered mothers. One young mother was actually holding her baby when she was tasered. When the incident became public, the police held a press conference packed with lies (e.g., they had to save the baby because his mother was suffocating him; the mother was mentally unstable, and on and on). People talk about the New World Order and all its horrors. These horrors have been going on for decades, and nothing compares to them in terms of the magnitude of injustice and brutality and suffering of the innocent and vulnerable.
And for anyone interested in what really happened in El Dorado, Texas, there are a number of websites, including the FLDS websites that give highly credible, and factual information on the parties involved as well as what actually occured. And look at the before and after pictures of those poor FLDS children and you can see in their eyes that they were brutalized by CPS, and NOT by their parents or some fictional pervert.
Thanks for all comments, but a special thanks to those like CPS Sucks, Ahem, JMR and Chicana for clarifying the FLDS fiasco.
California Jim, I hope that if those men are guilty they are punished to the full extent of the law.
12 bad men doesn't justify traumatizing over 400 children and their families.
Why don't you want the CPS workers who decided adult women were pregnant minors, then held them captive for months prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Come on, it was government kidnapping.
Hundreds of children suffered because a few might have been abused.
But don't listen to me. Read the Supreme Court Ruling. It read exactly as I predicted.
Back to the videos, did you think any of those scenarios were in the children's best interests ?
Did any of them look abused ?
I mean before CPS started dragging them away screaming ?
They didn't look relieved at being 'saved' to me.
Chicana,
I might add the rest of the truth to California Jim's attempt to spice things up to inflame the public.
Of those 12 men, 1 was charged with bigamy. Nothing else. He simply had more than one woman in his family. They were all consenting adults. This will be a great test case since it is hard to prosecute consenting adults relationships.
Another was the community doctor. His crime was delivering children to mothers who were under 18, which happened years ago, and not reporting it as abuse.
Cont...
...Cont.
The other men were charged with having sex with women under age 18. Yes, sex under 18 IS considered a crime in most states under varying circumstances.
In these particular circumstances these couples were married. Sex outside of marriage is considered a moral sin. This is legal in Texas with parental consent. However because they were not "legal" marriages, or they were "polygamous" marriages, they were charged although they had parental consent.
Another part Mr. Jim didn't mention was that all charges stem from marriages that occured before 2006. The FLDS have had the policy for over 3 years now that they will not perform marriages to those under 18.
If you look at the greater picture, this is simply selective prosecution. There are other "teen" marriages and "teen pregnancies", and yes, even to older men, (who are not prosecuted) in the state of Texas, I'm guessing way more than in the FLDS community.
CPS/DCYF DOES abuse children. Check out my grandson Austin Knightls web-site and You tube video-bringaustinhome. It shows how happy he was until DCYF stole him illegally. Now he's doped up on Adderol, which DCYF claims is for ADHD, but paperwork states he was put on it for his violent behavior thanks to DCYF taking him from his entire family. The video shows Austin before DCYF and after DCYF, in his drugged state of mind. Please check this out! Is there really any need to do this to our children! DCYF needs a dose of their own medicne!
Cal Jim: In California what they did is actually a crime (see Beltran v Santa Clara where the federal court admitted that they weren't immune under state law, but it took an enblanc decision to fix the federal precedents.) And in Texas the law for criminal procescutions requires that Texas show probable cause for each search warrant - well the crimes they're prosecuting depend on evidence siezed from warrants based on Swinton's lies and no investigation. So everything from the first warrant goes and the claims made for the second depend on the search and siezures of the first so it goes away too. See Houston career defense attorney John Floyd's web site. Of course when the judge who issued the warrant is also the judge trying the case, the potential conflict of interest is great and this judge clearly doesn't know the law very well (already overturned on most the 460+ child abuse cases for lack of evidence: should have read Island Pond case).
JMR your conclusion that the initial search warrants were the fault of a Rozita Swinton, up to today has never been even charged, and you explain it as a foregone fact? Ahem I am a California native and familiar with the Fundamentalist LDS, I am neither a CPS worker, Eldorado neighbor, I am not female or exFLDS sorry to pop you biased cross-section of the opposition but my concerns lie with the similarities the FLDS Church has with The Peoples Temple and Reverend Jim Jones. There are Grand Jury indictments against this covert fundamentalist sect that has traveled over 1,000 miles away from their community of Short Creek and cloistered their congregation behind twin-fenced, tower guarded and secured stalag and have built their Temple in the belief that the End-of-Time is occurring.
Dan you feel well informed with the comments from a handful of your posters and not one of them addressed my specific question on how is it 550+ Adults and children are sequestered onto this Texas compoun
Astonishing isn't it:
here's my reply to your charge of my supposed half-truths
1.) the one charge on solely bigamy is brought against the Bishop F. Merril Jessop who conducted the marriage of his own daughter, namely Merrianne Jessop, to the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs. She was 12 years old at the time and Jeffs was 49 years old. Merrianne's Bishop and mother, named Barbara Jessop, attended the service and Texas law states that parents can not legally give permission to marry into a bigamist relationship, it is a third degree felony, yet uncharged. the Doctor Dan Barlow that is charged with misdemeanor offenses failed to report mandatory stautes of sexual abuse to proper authorities. If convicted his status as an M.D. licensed in Texas and membership in medical organizations will be placed under board reviews, the Doctor is a practicing polygamist and FLDS member.
2.) Statutory rape charges for nine girls are for being 12 to 16 years of age and by Texas law a child. Cont'd.
Cont'd....Texas law a child can not give permission to an adult concerning sexual contract, neither can the parent without Texas judicial review/approval which was not gotten by any YFZ parents.
3. The occurrence of these under-aged marriages has been disavowed by no lawful authorities of the FLDS Church. A spokesperson, named Willie R. Jessop, initially stated that under-aged marriages are no longer occurring but has since stated that he has no authority to speak for each individual authority and has identified himself, under oath, as speaking solely as a private citizen and FLDS member not as the Church, itself. Teresa Steed is yet a tenth suspected Child Bride who gave birth during the CPS removal but presently her whereabouts are unknown. She gave birth in the summer of 2008.
Astonishing isn't it, the facts and indictments speak for themselves in a YFZ Ranch congregation that hid fugitive Warren S. Jeffs while he was wanted on the FBI Ten Most Wanted Posters.
California JIm, All of your comments miss the point, so they are pointless. You cannot take seize all of the children from a group because a few children have been abused. When a Catholic priest abuses children, they don't seize all of the children in the church or parochial school. It's not constitutional. Someday maybe you will get the point, like when they are taking all of the kids in your church or community.
Dan, Maybe so you want to narrow your topic and focus on solely CPS abuses but the FLDS Church has moved well over 1,000+ Adults and children from Short Creek, Utah into Eldorado, Texas, Mancos Colorado and Pringle South Dakota. Ignore the childrens trauma and abuse at this massive treatment but don't be insulting by likening it to a Catholic priest abuse during an hours church service or course of a students six hours at school. These children were brought to a new compound to worship, school and live 24/7. You say I am missing the and you say ,"...because a few children have been abused". A few to me is a half-dozen or so, say 3 to 6 children. The count is now at 10 Child Brides and the charges Total 26, that's more than a few. The mistakes made here given convictions, especially more than a half-dozen or so of children's sexual abuse will become a Public & Press outcry of a series of felonies, unlike any other family abuse case in recent decades.
Congressman Leo Ryan died along with other members of his entourage trying to remove a few People's Temple members who elected to leave the Jonestown, Guyana compound, were later that day of November 18, 1978 a Total of 909 People's Temple members committed mass suicide, their Constitutional rights expired with them but not enough was done by lawful authorities to stop this heinous historical disaster before it was too late. Maybe someday the Examiner will remember failures to discuss thoroughly the threats to avoid future disasters. Dan you are wearing blinders and I can see clearly a much greater threat than your concerns are focused upon. Congressman Ryan is the only representative assassinated while performing his office in American history but no need to be alarmed.
Inability to distinguish between what happened at Jonestown and what happened at the FLDS raid reveals a greater blindness that I could ever be guilty of. I suggest googling Texas ACLU FLDS and read the brief by the ACLU in opposition to the clear cut unconstitutional taking of children in a wholesale manner.
Jim Jones killed children in the name of God at Jonestown. The government killed children in the name of protecting children during the raid on MOVE in Philadelphia and on the Branch Davidians in Waco. I am against child abuse whether parents are doing it, religious leaders and the government.
Inability to see the parallels of walling up the Religious congregation into compounds behind twin fenced, guard towers and locked entrances and removing the faithful from their familiar surroundings, extended families and neighborhoods in preparation for the "End-Time" and the people's Temple leaving their homes to establish Jonestown in both instances because their religious leader had visions from heaven, does this seem like your normal CPS child abuse case or is there something a little more fanatical or zealous religious sect practices in evidence. The People's Temple moved from Indiana to California then Guyana. The FLDS Church has other compounds in Canada and Mexico, if they move out of the U.S. this focus on the Constitution will become mute. The Jonestown disaster was the worse civilian loss of lives before the 9/11 Twin Towers. Turn your deaf ear and blind eye but if these matters continue to escalate these covert compounds will be the locations of future crime scenes.
California Jim, You might be right, and that would be a tragedy. People have been saying that about the FLDS since the first time they were raided by the State of Arizona in 1953. However, the government must proceed against all of its citizens in a constitutional manner. The government, and people like you, can also be enablers of these people, by fostering an atmosphere that creates a state of paranoia in people who may already be unstable (i.e. David Koresh). Jim, if you want to comment further on this, be my guest, but I have said my piece. New Hampshire's motto is Live Free or Die. I agree with that. Too many people want to trade their freedom for safety. You appear to fall into the latter category.
Well I did comment further Dan but you have chosen to delete it after it was posted. If you think the Westboro Baptist Church members have lied to you then i would suggest that some of your enlightened posters are guilty of doing the same thing. The Rick A. Ross Institute reports on cults and tracks their activities on their website. They have reports and more information on both of these groups, go there Dan you need to be more informed on the facts and greater details, otherwise you'll be lied and used like a tool.
California Jim, A lot more of your comments will be deleted if you continue to misrepresent my position. I am opposed to the teachings of the FLDS, but they still have certain constitutional rights. The same is true of Tony Alamo Ministries. My position is the same as the Texas ACLU in the amicus brief they filed regarding the seizure of FLDS children. I follow Rick Ross regularly and have contributed articles to his site. Stop being so obtuse. Until you can get it through your thick skull that one does not have to like a person's beliefs in order to defend their civil rights, you will never understand what I write.
I'll accept my thick cranium and obtuse thinking and await the Grand Jury indictment convictions from a real Judge and Jury.
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