Students at Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe in Georgia were not going to let issues of church and state deter them from making a statement Friday night.
For six years or so, cheerleaders at Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe have painted elaborate paper banners, adorned with Bible verses, through which football players have dashed at the outset of games, writes AJC Political Insider Jim Galloway.
The Catoosa County school system cracked down on the Bible-versed banners after a parent complained and fear of a lawsuit that might make a separation of church and state claim.
The first Friday night after the ban, Bible verses and statements of faith were found everywhere but the run-through banner.
The day before the game, many students attended class wearing shirts with Bible verses and painted their cars with messages that read: 'Warriors for Christ'. During the game, several other messages were visible in the packed stadium.
Source/photos: Daily Mail online
Comments
And we care about this why?
Maybe the school should announce a prohibition of studying to encourage the adolescents to rebel and learn something.
But this acting out is hardly news in the culture of the South. The kids probably don't have a clue what the ideas were upon which this country was founded. Many adults don't.
I look at these parents and students as stupid and ignorant to the constitution.
I for one would like to know how these religious folks would feel if other parents had verses from tthe Koran, or from the various religions?
Has anyone seen children of the corn? This level of religious zeal is frightening and reminiscent of a cult. It is absolutely exclusionary. Religion belongs in the home and church, not in public school. I've been hearing that the kids came up with all this on their own. Yeah right. I'll bet no adults or clergy gave any of them the ideas. If the children did come up with it themselves, their christian indoctrination was indeed very successful.
Al, Jim and Dave ... really? Are you kidding me? As someone who works daily with teenagers, I can tell you they are incredibly able to decipher injustice and make decisions based on their own faith - not that of their parents, or "clergy". Maybe you should take some time and return to the constitution yourselves and review that this was indeed a country set up with God as its head and its guidance. You talk about "religion" because to you "religion" is what clueless adults and the ACLU hide behind. You talk of Christians pushing their agenda on everyone when clearly your insults and ignorance, as well as the ACLU's agenda is being pushed on anyone who would listen ... all of which is totally contrary to what the original ideals of this country were founded on. Because it is about "religion" to you, you wouldn't understand. But for those of us who recognizes it's about "relationship" instead, that's what makes life complete and our fight worth fighting ... even under persecution.
Randy, if these kids happened to have been born in Pakistan they would be muslim. Your going to tell me that these teenage kids read the bible of their own accord, all of it, the good and the bad parts and because it was so interesting, they felt compelled to make giant signs quoting scripture? If they were not indoctrinated (I prefer brainwashed) as young children they wouldn't be behaving in this way. You want to talk about persecution, how do you think any non-christian feels sitting in the stands. I'd say excluded and uncomfortable. Christians are exclusory by nature, they don't want everyone to be included, not unless they become christian. What about the fact that a non-believer running for office has to lie and pretend to invoke god because they know it gets automatic respect and they cannot win an election without it. I don't want to push an agenda to prohibit religion in the home or church, where it belongs. Well, except if it involves praying for one of these kids to be cured
continued from below.
...of diabetes instead of taking them to a doctor. That aside, the U.S. was founded as a secular nation where people have the freedom of and from religion. Why do christians need to be so pushy anyway? If their god really is real, let "him" sort it all out.
Dave ... please. Give students credit. Do they read from beginning to end, cover to cover ...I would in all honestly say no; just like in all honesty you can't say they've been indoctrinated or brain-washed. I am in a position to see kids have REAL experiences that have nothing to do with whether their parents are Christian or not. And because of that experience - which you obviously haven't had yet - it is very real to them and they are very passionate about it. If you are passionate about fishing, you might read magazines or books about how to beome a better fisherman ... do you read it cover to cover - probably not, but you read enough of it to help you along the way at that point in your life. It amazes me the number of non-Christians who blame Christians for how miserable their lives are ... by the way, that's your choice not mine. As a Christian though, our joy in our relationship with God urges us to share that faith. If you choose not to check it out for yourself, that's fine.
...(Cont.)
And if you're looking to Christians to find perfection, we'll let you down ... just as non-Christiants let us down. If you want perfection, look at the only perfect person in history: Jesus Christ. If you want to get all your cronies together and make a sign for your sons to run through that is atheist/agnostic or whatever, go for it. Because we are, INDEED, a Christian nation, I don't think you'll have many supporters, but it is certainly your right to do so. The law clearly states that anything that is student-led is in accordance with every law and every word in the constitution. But, considering you and the ACLU fail to completely understand or read the constitution for what it said you hide behind the asinine ideal that faith is not real to them they must be brain-washed. That's completely and utterly absurd. You should probably spend some time with teenagers - both Christian and non-Christian - and find out for yourself how capable they are of thinking for themselves.
Randy,
1.Look at these kids, not indoctrinated? it's hard to get teenagers to clean their room let alone...
2.REAL experiences? Will you give me one? Pick your best one.
3.I'm not miserable. If christians stayed to themselves and stopped pushing their so called superior beliefs on everybody I wouldn't even think about them, sort of like I don't think about the jews. Share your beliefs in your home and church.
4.A christian nation? Wrong. An established secular nation where people have freedom of and FROM religion. "a christian nation" is a major reason why I and many many others have a problem with your religion. why do you feel compelled to say such an exclusory thing?
5.You yourself,"fail to completely understand or read the constitution for what it said". You yourself "hide behind the asinine ideal that faith is not real to them they must be brain-washed". Thats what YOU think about all other religions except your own. Why are christians so intolerant? Let "god" sort it all ou
cont.
Let "god" sort it all out.
6. I have a teenager, do you know about peer pressure? At this age there is a great deal of fear of not fitting in. Wouldn't you agree?
Randy writes:"? As someone who works daily with teenagers, I can tell you they are incredibly able to decipher injustice and make decisions based on their own faith -"
Which they got through indoctrination from infancy, and endless repetition. No critical thinking is taught in schools, just fact stuffing. Further, in the culture of that community religion is integrated with community. Kids frequently don't see injustice. They still operate on a tribal level which is why you get a lot of gangs and peer pressue. Sure, they sense injustice about some things.. video game time, keys to the car. To perceive bigger problems takes education.
"Maybe you should take some time and return to the constitution yourselves" I have.
" and review that this was indeed a country set up with God as its head and its guidance."
This is complete nonsense. Why do you suppose no deity is mentioned in the constition? This is a dominionist lie.
Randy writes:"You talk about "religion" because to you "religion" is what clueless adults and the ACLU hide behind."
Really? How does anyone "hide behind" religion except the bible thumpers?
"the ACLU's agenda is being pushed on anyone who would listen "
The ACLU's agenda is the constitution, which you, apparently support perverting.
"... all of which is totally contrary to what the original ideals of this country were founded on."
Historically, factually and philosophically false. The founding ideals were secular, pragmatic, egalitarian (within the context of their culture which meant white males) and the notion of natural law, not divine law which they recognized was unknowable.
Please don't dredge up the lies being spread by the dominionist revisionists like Barton. They're provably lies.
"Because it is about "religion" to you, you wouldn't understand."
What wouldn't we understand?
"But for those of us who recognizes it's about "relationship" instead, that's what makes life complete and our fight worth fighting ... even under persecution."
You are welcome to your personal reveries. No one is interesting in intruding on that nor discouraging any religious activity you wish as a private citizen. There is no dearth of churches in this country.
No one is persecuting you, nor religionists. It is not persecution to keep the state out of religion and religion out of the state. It is common sense learned from centuries of bloodshed and stupid policy.
"just like in all honesty you can't say they've been indoctrinated or brain-washed."
How do you define "brainwashed". Teaching children from the moment they can talk about concepts, presented as fact, which are not factual but faith based suppositions? Regarding as good the acceptance of propositions having no support in fact or reason? Bringing them to weekly re-enforcement ceremonies in which the mythology is presented over and over, and in which the human need for membership in community is tied to acceptance of these unknowable ideas? Suggesting some sort of fantasy relationship with a supposed being which can't be demonstrated?
Ok. Lets not call it brainwashing. It sure is indoctrination.
"kids have REAL experiences that have nothing to do with whether their parents are Christian or not."
So you indoctrinate the kids of atheists? What "real experiences". Its very easy to get kids passionate about ideas if you're good at it.
"And if you're looking to Christians to find perfection, we'll let you down ... just as non-Christiants let us down."
Doh.. no kidding.
"If you want perfection, look at the only perfect person in history: Jesus Christ. "
You know that how? Can you even provide substantial evidence that there was such a person? Any documentation outside of religious teaching contributing to a factual picture of him? Perfect?
"Because we are, INDEED, a Christian nation"
Only in the sense of having a majority of people nominally Christian. It is emphatically NOT the nature of our state.
"I don't think you'll have many supporters"
And that matters why?
"The law clearly states that anything that is student-led is in accordance with every law and every word in the constitution"
What law? Citation? There is no such law.
"But, considering you and the ACLU fail to completely understand or read the constitution for what it said"
Really? I and the ACLU don't understand the constitution and you do? Care to demonstrate that? More likely you've been fed a bill of goods by your dominionist friends.
"you hide behind the asinine ideal that faith is not real to them they must be brain-washed"
No one's hiding behind any idea, particularly one so incompetently expressed as this statement. It is evident that faith, the emotion, is a real phenomenon of human psychology. That what object of a human's faith is real or verifiable is a different issue. We know that people imagine all sorts of things. Demonstrating that what is imagined is verifiable objectively is another matter.
Teen agers certainly do think for themselves, but like all humans what they think depends on what they have been taught and experienced. If they haven't been taught critical thinking their thought is unlikely to use it.
It's good the kids are presenting positive Biblical comments.
They could have used Psalm 14: The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God
I agree that the school and its administrators should not have religious references as part of an official action, sports team or its outward image - it is, after all, a publicly funded school. Should an atheist student or a Muslim student feel torn about being a cheerleader because it would require making the banners?
At the same time, I support the students' rights to make their personal faith known from the sidelines, at school, at home - wherever. Paint yourself, wave a sign. That has no bearing on others, and it should not be penalized. Sure you run the risk of a group of students making others feel unwelcome for not expressing the same faith, but that is where a message of tolerance should be introduced - not banning.
And yes - this is all written from a Christian perspective. We're not all on a 24/7 mission to slam you in the face with Bibles - some of us just believe in living out Christ's love in the world by helping those in need.
Wow, Al and Dave ... such hatred and "intolerance" of another man's opinion. According to what you've been saying, you MUST be a Christian. You are stuffing your own non-religious opinions down our throats and dissecting every word someone says by interjecting your own "indoctrinated" or "brainwashed" ideas. While you think I can't prove Jesus "was ever such a person" there is plenty of historical as well as archaelogical facts, not to mention over 3,000 prophecies that have been proven to have taken place concerning his life, death and resurrection by even the staunchest of non-believing scientists. Now, concerning the law ... it certainly allows those students who want to pray (to Whomever they choose, by the way) they can do so without fear ... Muslims, Jews, whoever, have certainly had their freedom to do whatever, even if they haven't exercised it in the same ways as Christians. It is a simple fact that if the rate of Islamic influence continues at its current rate, the United
(cont) ... States will be a majority Islamic nation by 2055. With too many people concerned about a Christian faith that promotes love, tolerance and grace (although we admittedly aren't as good at it as Jesus is) and calls it brainwashing ... then if you're still around in 2055, you can ride arround on your own high horse yelling "JIHAD!
Randy, A Christian faith that promotes tolerance? You must be joking. Your islamophobic paranoia proves your intolerance. Christians, as an elementary part of your faith, you are required to be intolerant. Just admit it.
Dave ... I'm just stating facts, based on actual data and trends that anyone can access. It's a fact that the Islamic movement at its very core is intolerant of anyone not fundamentally Muslim ... infidels, I believe they are called, and - again - at its very core calls for all "infidels", those who don't believe as they do, to be eliminated through Jihad. That is what I'm talking about by 2055 ... it seems your "Christianophobic" paranoia is clouding your own sense of truth. But, as I stated earlier and you and your buddies dissected piece by piece ... that is your choice. And that's fine ... I can absolutely tolerate that. My only reason for entering this discussion in the first place was to simply try to correct the wrong assumption that teenagers can't experience for themselves their faith and that you can't prove otherwise except to be intolerant yourselves with your conspiracy theories of Christian "brainwashing".
I am a teenager and I am Catholic. I've been to a Catholic school my whole life. So yes, I've been indoctrinated. However, I was also taught critical thinking skills and I use them everyday and in dealing with my faith. I chose to be Catholic when I was confirmed not because my parents wanted me to or because that's what all my friends did. I chose to be Catholic because that's what I believe. I'm not saying that any of you need to become Catholic, but I'm also not afraid to say that I believe in God. Tolerance is a very important part of the Catholic Church that I think is just now being emphasized more.
(cont)
I agree with Simon. A public school can not endorse any religion; they can not take any official action to either support or hinder religious expression (as long as the religious expression is not harmful or forceful). This means a public school can not provide prayer rooms or times and it can't have prayers posted around school and so on and so forth. However, students may profess whatever they believe without penalty, again as long is the profession/expression is not harmful or forceful.(and faculty and staff may do so as well, as long as it is made clear that those beliefs are that of the individual and not the institution) All this because the Constitution states in the 1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". So if it was the students deciding to make the banner and the students deciding to run through it, thats there own perogative. As long as it was not a required activity, there's nothing wrong with it. And yes peer pressure does exist and its a strong force, but thats where the critical thinking and strong self resolve that they're supposed to be taught would come in right? If I'm a cheerleader and don't agree with making the banner then I don't have to. And as long as I'm not hazed or persecuted because of it then thats fine.
(cont)
The thing that disappoints me most about this conversation is not so much the religious aspect of it, but the total and complete lack of respect for teenagers. Yes, we are young and we don't have as much experience or maybe even knowledge as you adults, but that doesn't make us worthless. It is exactly this type of attitude that encourages the mindlessness and "brainwashing" of youth. Many teenagers are really very smart and amiable people, but they've never been challenged or encouraged. I think its entirely possible that if we started treating youth less like mindless delinquents are more like respectable people that will some day be your peers, we would have an entirely different community.
Oh you guys shut up! Let them do as they please. If the original parent who complained wasn't as touchy as you people are, then maybe there wouldn't be problems with stuff like this. Don't like seeing Bible verses? Turn your head. You turn your head to things you find unpleasant every day. Well, this is a part of life. Get over it.
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