The argument over the existence of God is still raging on and will never end. As a Christian we must understand that it is not our responsibility to attempt to prove that He exists to someone who doesn't believe. We merely are required to share the gospel, not enforce it. God is more than capable of doing the enforcing. We must however, share our testimonies concerning how He has touched and blessed us and explain His word to those who have not seen it before or do not understand it. After we accomplish this it is up to the individual to accept the truth. Jesus Christ Himself avoided His own hometown of Nazareth during his earthly ministry because unbelief was so rampant in that city. 1 Corinthians 2:14 teaches us, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Simply put, those who insist on not believing because they require proof will never get it.
God does not owe anyone proof of His existence. If by looking at this world and all its wonders, by listening to the testimonies of our fellow humans who have been touched by Him and by reading His Holy Bible we are not convinced, He will unhappily allow us stay lost. God is the ultimate gentleman and will not force Himself on anyone. John 4:24 reveals to us that, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Anyone who is waiting on biological or natural proof prior to acceptance of our supernatural God is going to spend a lifetime waiting for nothing.
The basic fact that we always overlook when it comes to faith and belief is that you cannot prove God. He is beyond our ability as a human to create proof of Him. Unbelievers will invariable start the discussion by asking for proof. After all, we can't see, touch, smell, hear or taste God, so He must not exist. etc, etc. A simple fact to consider: We also cannot see, touch, smell, hear or taste Influenza but after a seven to ten day bout with it you will fervently believe in the flu. We also cannot see, touch, smell, hear or taste gravity but if you accidentally fall from a tree or a building that abrupt impact with the ground immediately following will make you an instant believer. The existence discussion always makes me think of a joke I have heard several times, with several variations. which I will share below:
A student made mention of God one day in the classroom. The teacher, being an atheist, told the student that God didn’t exist and He was just a fairy tale someone made up to make children behave. The student replied back she was certain God is real.The teacher said, “How do you know He is real? We can’t see Him can we? How can you prove something is real if you can’t see it?” The student thought for a minute and then replied, “Teacher, do you have a brain?” The Teacher replied back indignantly, “Well, of course I do!” The student said, “But, I can’t see it. How can you prove something is real if I can’t see it? That must mean you don’t have one after all.”
The awesome news concerning Father God and His only begotten son Jesus Christ is that to receive them and exercise our belief, faith, love and hope in Them does not require any particular feeling, sensation or mood. As humans we inevitably get wrapped up in "senses" and "feelings." Senses and feelings are merely biological functions or psychological emotions, which are tied to our flesh. As discussed previously God is a spirit that the flesh cannot understand. The seeing, touching, smelling, hearing and tasting, as well as, the glad, mad, sad, etc. have nothing to do with spirituality and our relationship with God and Christ. Our belief, faith, love and hope in Them are completely about knowing that what we know is what we know.
1 Corinthians 2:9-13
Comments
god exists.....
when we people r in trouble ,we say"hey bhagwan" either by concsious main or not
bt we say
dis is true
so it maens dere is smone who cares us........
Strawman alert. You don't have to "see, touch, smell, hear or taste" something to know it exists - but atheists recognize that you can detect something by its effects on other things. Atheists feel love, for example, but they see it in how others act, too. (How many songs are there about the difference between saying you love someone and acting like it?)
So, effects of God on what we do see? Oddly enough, less and less as time goes on. (Google Tyson's essay, "The Perimeter of Ignorance".) Miracles require a lot of proof - does anyone here think Sai Baba actually has the powers his millions of followers attribute to him? And all religions claim salutary effects on their believers... but they can't all be right. Maybe the effect has another explanation?
But if it really does depend on the 'spirit', why cite "this world and all its wonders... the testimonies of our fellow humans who have been touched by Him and... His Holy Bible"?
Good job with a thoughtful discourse.
Good to see a christian moving towards rationalism.
You have passed stage 1. There is no proof of God.
Stage 2. There is no testable EVIDENCE for God.
This one is a bit trickier, although I am sure you will soon realise it. It is trickier, because it is hard define what is or isn't evidence. Lack of knowledge of how or why things happen is often confused with evidence for god. It is not!
Even if we don't have all the answers yet they are gradually coming and each new discovery would therefore diminish your God.
Step 3 is the realisation that god belief is not justifible.
Step 4 is the abandoning of god belief (pending the arival of compelling evidence)
There are numerous testimonys to miracles, sometimes called synchronistic events and sometimes called coincidence. This I believe is evidence of God at work. And to say we will never know is against the promise of the Bible: After all, its quite clear from that he's coming back. I hope its right, cos this world could do with some direct divine intervention!
Proving God exists is impossible. It requires faith to believe in His existence. If we could prove God's existence, we would not need faith. God deliberately designed it so we would have to choose to believe in what we cannot see. The reward for faith in God is eternal life.
At the same time, it is harder to prove that God does not exist. Many have tried and come to faith in God. The evidence of God's existence far outweighs the evidence against Him. Some fear that God will hurt them if they aren't good enough and seek to deny Him. They don't know how loving and compassionate He is. Some are unwilling to give up their sin to believe in God. That doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.
The greatest proof of God's existence is Jesus Christ. Getting To Know Jesus is a Bible study that will bring you into the loving presence of God and help you see, understand and apply His POWER to your life. Jesus is God who became man to redeem us so we could be children of GOd.
Magical, invisible friends are for idiots and small children.
Period.
Which are you, Mr. Mullins?
What about the miracles???? Google miracles!!!! read "Beyond Coincidence by Martin Plimmer and Brian King" know he is working!!!
Thanks to everyone for their input.
To: gmc4jesus, To you I say amen and amen!! I'm so glad to see a fellow Christian who really gets it!
To: palmpete, Wow! You can discount the creator of the universe and the greatest part of our existence in just 4 simple steps. You have my condolescences... I will pray for you.
To: Pluto Animus, I have read some of your other posts concerning religion on the internet, which are consistently insulting and derogatory. I can tell you are bitter from having been hurt in the past and will pray for you to find love.
You say you don't have to prove god exists, but I think you do. Until I have proof, I will never believe. As long as I don't believe, I and others will continue to convert Christians to Atheism (It's really very easy), and your backwards philosophy will die. We don't do this because we love the nonexistent "Devil", or because we hate life or humanity or whatever you nutters accuse us of hating. We do it because we love humanity, and because we value human life more than religious people because we know the truth: You truly only live once! The worst part is the way the religious types take to killing each other over their imaginary friends. It's a shame, you claim to be so enlightened, yet you act like savages. The atheists are the truly enlightened ones, we are above your petty holy wars. Your ways are far more evil than ours. Prove me wrong, find an atheist serial killer, rapist, or murderer. But you guys don't do proof do you?
If not into coersion into faith, then why be militant into coersion into anything else: Including atheism? why teach that people are wrong for finding solice and wisdom in the teachings of religion? Can you truly say religion doesn't put a lot of people off of sin (like murder)! Yes there is evil from false preaching and the bible even warns against it: But there is a God, watching over everyone from every faith or non faith, and sometimes he does amazing things for people! You can't deny this: There is much evedence! There is also a malevolent force that is beyond human comprehension at work: And there is a war between the apostles of each force. But it is confusing, as the soldiers in this war exist in all faiths and non faiths, of each side. It is very complex finding the right path: Do not destroy the good you can find in any teaching with anger at those who use it for evil.
If the fear of god is keeping you from doing evil things, you are not a good person. And as for evidence of god's existence, lets see it.
So god created us all with original sin, then impregnated a woman with himself so that he could be born, then he killed himself as a sacrifice to himself all to save us from the sin that he originally condemned us to?
If you have to believe in something, pick something real. I believe that people are basically good, you believe the opposite. No wonder there is so much self-loathing involved in Christianity.
I don't know if you've read my other comments, but MIRACLES! I already told you how to find out about them! They are often ever so significant in life! Don't ask me to prove every teaching in the bible for real, but there is deep, life changing wisdom in it. And in much other culture in the world. Just a word about original sin. The story goes like this: An angel created by God got annoyed with serving him and was thrown out of heaven. He therefore decided to pit his wits against God and his creation, and persuaded the origional humans to join him. Ever since then he has been a major influence on humans, leading them to evil. God has raised up numerous prophets to lead people away from evil, but the devil counteracts them in many ways leading them astray. So God didn't create us sinfull, and he's very unhappy that we are, or so I understand from religion. Take it or leave it, but I see its manifestations everywhere!
AND the Devil's agents can be followers of the prophets! Take Judas for instance! Which leads me on to say this: Jesus was essentialy murdered by people of his own faith because they didn't like his natural authority. He died because the humanity is jealous, ignorant and opressive. But thankfully, his story lives on and brings much hope to others.
The thing about religion is a lot of its actual teaching makes sense! I have often tested the law that is given, only to find myself drawn back to its original intention, which is in fact very moral and righteous, designed for the promotion of good in culture. It may be interpreted wrongly or taught well so it can be shown as right! I find it amazingly interesting and thought provoking.
And yes, there is much good in people! Its just sometimes they can be very foolish, and ignore guidance and righteousness and fall into the most awfull situations. Good people can do BAD things, sometimes without realising. I know of some who could have do
I mean done with reading the Bible before there actions destroyed their familys! ~But what can you do?
I hope you find God, he's really pretty cool.
I began from the premise "There is no God"
And he told me otherwise!
Yes but if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then the only explanation for evil's existence is that god himself created it. He made the angels rebel, created hell, and doomed us all to it. So if the existence of god is to be believed, than you must also believe that god himself is responsible for every death, every murder, every rape, every sin, and evil itself. If I believed in that god, there's no way I would bow to such a beast, threat of hell or not.
Also, miracles are not proof of anything. I've never seen a miracle, I've heard of them, but then again I've also heard of the tooth fairy. But many would argue that faith is the absence of reason, and there's just no way to argue with someone who refuses to use reason. I suppose that's the whole point of this article and my original statement. Are we going in circles here?
Well, it seems to me that if you believe in the Bible you would find that it teaches that God is not omnipotent and ompresent. He has to ask Cain where Able is. He has to come and visit Sodom and Gomorah. He has to use angels and prophets to influence the world. I believe that this Angel that rebeled was an integral part of the organisation of the governance of the kingdom of God, and this is why he can command so much power. I believe God is trying to stop the rapes, murders, wars and greed that are the product of this malevolent beings influence. Some people even seek the Devil for earthly powers!
Its like trying to teach a teenager not to join a violent gang. You can plead with them, but these gangs often are appealing to them because they feel they are like kings of the street, even though they are vandals and hooligans and downright horriable. Often there is a clever and manipulitive individual or philosophy that schools them in the ways of there wrong.
But by showing them the benifits of kindness, love and community you could rescue them! And letting them know their evil actions will result in pain and imprisonment is also helpfull!
But they do what they do anyway. All you can do is try to show them the best way, which I hope we agree on!
If the teenager comes to you disillusioned with the path that following evil, and exepts the way of good you are very happy.
So it is with God!
Ok, the scenario in the adult world is frighteningly more complicated. The manipulation is much more powerfull, and can often disguise itself as good! But the concept is the same. I think we have been given some major pointers on how to be good by the prophets of God!
I don't think he wants anymore evil anywhere. But its not over. Until we can end the influence of evil, we cannot have peace love unity and equity. This will be the true nature of the world when God has defeated the Devil.
I reckon! . . .
Yes, it would seem so, this fact seems to be lost among your garden variety Christian. So if God isn't all powerful, and other factions are able to rise against him. What makes you think that he has the power to create a universe, and all life. What makes you think he will actually triumph over hell's forces, and that he even has the ability to come back for his followers. Even if he could, a trip to heaven during the second coming would likely be akin to getting drafted for war. Can angels die? Can a soul taken during rapture be destroyed in a war between Heaven and Hell? Regardless of the answer, you have to ask yourself, "What's the point?". If god created satan and they are in a battle to win souls, who's to say that either of them are righteous, they both exhibit a certain amount of vanity in their desire to be worshiped in the first place.
About miricles. Well, if something comes about that defys explination, that is so amazingly special it is beyond belief you look for an explanation! The thing is these things that happen are so hardcorely significant they point to higher inteligences at work directing the flow of humanity. I have had many (Maybe minor but very powerfull) miracles happen in my life, and have heard of many more, much more powerfull! I tell you, there is something bigger than us doing strange things! I think that if it happens to you you'll understand- but until it does don't you think all the testimonys of coincidence and sychronicity and miracles are rather extrodinairy? All those people have been affected by stange and mysterious forces! Is it wrong to say they are evidence of God?
Yes but its like if you don't take sides you compromise your own integrity! If you don't take a stand against murderers oppressors and bullys you must become party to their regimes. We must fight for good, even at the risk of loosing to satisfy our own ideals! If you don't vote for instance, you've effectively voted for the winner of the election! Ok thats slightly flawed, 'cos elections get rigged but you see what I'm saying.
Anyway, the main idea is that as with any conflict, someone will prevail. And once the final battle has been fought, and evil is eradicated forever will I be satisfied. Or I will be written out of history by the victor. I will not give in to what I percieve as deep and malicious evil.
And worship? Well, do you think that loyalty is important? It certainly helps to have a strong leader in any organisation, and your position in the organisation can be based on your loyalty to thier ideals. And good leaders learn from thier followers to.
It's not wrong to say it's anything, but it's delusional to think that there's a mysterious being out there pulling strings. The universe is an amazing thing. When you look at how and why it was formed (scientifically) the existence of life is a no-brainer, as does the existence of life elsewhere. It's statistically impossible that we're the only colonized planet in the Universe, this is fact (and not accounted for in any degree in the bible). The universe is basically infinite, meaning that circumstances will and do align themselves in every combination at any given time throughout the universe. When you think of it like this, miracles just seem to happen. The right set of circumstances at the right time, no supernatural forces needed.
I think you compromise your integrity when you do take a side in a war between imaginary beings. Regardless of whether or not god or satan are real, they have not been observed. That's the crux, faith is in direct conflict with reason. You can say, "Some people choose faith", and that is most certainly true. The problem is that there is no basis for it. To the rational thinker god is no more real than santa claus. To the irrational thinker, god could possibly exist, and he hates everyone who doesn't believe the same delusions as the thinker himself. God is in your heart, but the fact is your heart just pumps blood, god is in you head, god is your brain failing to grasp logic. God is an illusion, a defense mechanism, that you can use to your own purpose. God is your companion, your scapegoat, the source of your hate, whatever you want him to be. The fact that a god keeps you sane is insanity in and of itself.
If of course a follower has anything to teach a leader!
Is asking for loyalty vain? It maybe the best way of keeping your organisation together! Especially if people come to their loyalty through genuine respect for your works!
I hope you don't think I'm unreasonable . . .
Did God create the universe? Well thats the idea! The illuminating of the emptyness, the power of gravity and the movements of the spheres, the development of life, all arising from what? From a burst of energy from something smaller than an atom (is that right?!!) has sprung forth our universe and our consciousness! Did he cause that?
All I am certain of is his influence in it. I would have had to have been there to tell you for sure! But I get the feeling its a structure thats been set up. The bible teaches that we cant know or question it! I enjoy guessing from time to time though. I have some theory's as to why God might have done it!
It's certainly a facinating place.
"The bible teaches that we cant know or question it!"
That is my biggest problem with Christianity, it encourages ignorance. This fact alone is the reason why you guys are so heavily preyed upon. You're gullible and easily taken advantage of. Do you really think that Christianity's big influencers sitting on their golden thrones actually believe what they are preaching? They really, really don't. If they believed in the basic principles of Christianity, which I gather to basically amount to being fair and good to everybody, then why would they amass money and use it for their own gain? Why would they tell you to hate people who don't share your beliefs? It is because people that don't believe are a direct threat to their influence. I'm not talking about the pastor at your church, he's just as brainwashed as his congregation. In the beginning, God (through the mouths of men) created fear. Fear begat your ancestors, your parents, and then you. Break the cycle, end this madness
But they're so harmoniously glorious! And just because anthing can happen it doesn't follow that it will! I see that circumstances are many factors that have so little a chance of ever happening all coresponding they impact on me with extreme wonder! I see this as signs of a power that is beyond anything but the word GOD. You can write it off as anything happens but its so mentally significant it has convinced me. And thus I seek proof of his existance, and see it, and I know I am not alone in this.
I agree that the irrational thinker hate anybody who disagrees: But could you apply this template to an athiest? Hate and negativity are destructive forces and should only be used to condemn true evil. I believe there is no evil in sceptism, and much good in constructive critisism. But to say that there is no logic in the belief of God is why I am typing. I have found logic in spirituality and faith. I believe you can have a relationship with God. Many people find this!
Well, basically I agree with you about some of that! People can be very closed down to new learning, and wish you to blindly take their own accepted version of the truth. Who knows just how accurate the bible is! And what more could it tell us. The gospel of John teaches that Jesus did and said many more amazing things than are in it . . . The first gospels are hundreds of years away from Jesus' life: Islam banned the printing press for three centurys (it has to be said after many centurys of amazing scientific development) because it would encourage interpritations they did not condone: But I can't discount the wisdom and insight I have got from it. (or the Koran. Or many other works of faith) And somehow, the ideas fit in with my perception of the world as it is! All I am frightened of is doing wrong. And there is lots of advice on how to avoid that!
Before I go, I think it might be beneficial to explain how I became an atheist. It wasn't as some say, a fall from grace. I was raised as a Christian, went to church every Sunday as well as Sunday school. I loved the activities and the community involvement that came with it, but at no point did I ever buy the god story. It never made it through the part of my brain that distinguishes truth from a lie. Still, I felt a duty to perform, and go through the motions. I went to a revival, the point of this was for all the kids in the church to get baptized. I started having second thoughts and told a friend that I did not believe in god. He told the pastor who in turn told me that I did not have to believe. I've never felt more liberated in my life. I've been a good person all my life. I have only myself to answer to, and I'm a tough boss. I never do anything that I think I might hate myself for forever. God, for me, is not necessary. I live without fear, no god required. Good luck to you.
"We also cannot see, touch, smell, hear or taste Influenza. . ."
Uh, no. news.wisc.edu/newsphotos/influenza.html
"We also cannot see, touch, smell, hear or taste gravity. . ."
Incorrect again. I'll make you a deal, I won't teach Sunday school, and you stay away from the science, k?
I'll post this in the hope you read it someday: I know many of all faiths and non faiths who I believe are valient soldiers of Good in this world. I agree with your pastor. You don't have to. If God is working, he is checking for those who are good, and no ritual or symbol is nessessary for you to be loved by him for being good. He understands: How could he not? If he isn't, then I'm very wrong, and will have a few words with him when I get the chance, about how I would do things. I feel like I'm right about his benevolence and compassion, the wisest being must be able to comprehend our doubts and worries. I'm sure he exists though, having come from exactly the opposite as you!
Its been a pleasure talking! check myspace.com/dub_conscious if you ever want to continue talking: That goes for anyone reading this who wants to reason! Peace!
Can you say Owned?
I been back to where I got the "Can't know or question it" part:
its from Isiah 45. I'd just like to know does anybody else think that it's a sin to reason about the purpose of our creation? Maybe it's just that we can't possiably comprehend its magnitude? At times in my life I have had revelations about why a creator creates: And the amazing potentials of a creation is a great joy to it's creator! I can see why getting angry with your maker is a sin: If a child despises it (if they are good) parents much unhappyness is provoked; and in the translation I have just read the word "contends" is replaced with "quarrels". Maybe I have nothing to worry about!
This leads me to the conclusion that there is no (if there is please tell me) evidence that God does not want us to learn, and question; in fact every question answered (correctly) is wisdom obtained! And there is much in the bible that teaches us to obtain wisdom!
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