Rick Warren on July 4thspoke at the Islamic society of North America’s annual conference (ISNA.) Warren talked about Christians and Muslims working together to fight what he calls the big five, spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, extreme poverty, pandemic disease, and illiteracy or lack of education. This sounds good until you think about it for a second.
Even though everyone should want the best for themselves and their neighbors, there is something wrong with what Warren proposes. We should love our neighbors but Warren seems to have his priorities all wrong. The Gospel is the first priority but your lifestyle should match your beliefs. By this, I mean Christians first and most important duty, as presented by Christ is to spread the Gospel. Jesus wanted us to take care of the poor but in Matthew 26 just before Judas aggress to betray him, Jesus admonished his followers saying, “you always have the poor but you will not always have me.” There are two important points here. While Jesus was telling them that he was their priority because he was leaving soon, I think he points out that He in general is our priority. I believe He is also pointing out that there will always be poor people and it is not something that will be eliminated in this current world. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care for the poor but that a war on poverty is pointless.
In these five things Warren continually sets aside the Gospel truth. He wants to fight spiritual emptiness but what does that mean? Christ said He is the only way. If people are spiritual but don’t know Christ it is emptiness. Other religions might not agree with this but this is what makes Christianity different, it’s about a relationship with Christ not religiosity or spiritualness. Corrupt leadership, sure this is a bad thing and I think we should fight against it, but should this be a priority for a Christian leader. Did Jesus focus on fighting the corruption of Rome? Pandemic disease, I’m all for doing what we can to stop disease, including donating money. But this is best focused on by doctors and health organizations, not pastors. Illiteracy, again this is something that we as individuals can put our time into in our community and it is noble to help other organizations work to educate people so they can have a better life but I don’t see these things as a priority for a Christian minister.
Warren apologizes like Obama. Warren has apologized for the Crusades and for excess in the war on terror by Christians. First, Warren has no right to apologize for anyone but himself. Second, if Warren were a good student of history he would know that despite popular myth, the crusades were not a war on Muslims to win converts but the Crusaders took action to stop Islam from subjugating the Christian world. I’m sure wrongdoings were done by some crusaders but to give a general apology does not represent the truth.
One of the major problems is that Warren is not just willing to work with Muslims but he wants to partner with them. The Bible say we are not to be yoked together with unbelievers, I think this speaks to marriage but to other partnerships as well. Your Christian message will be watered down if you yoke yourselves with unbelievers. I am for cautiously allowing Muslims to work with Christian servant organizations, as long as they don’t preach Islam and are willing to help under the rules of the organization.
Warren stated “You know as an evangelical pastor, my deepest faith is in Jesus Christ, but you also need to know that I am committed not just to what I call the good news, but I am committed to the common good.” As a Christian pastor, Warren should realize that the only common good that counts in the end is salvation. It’s great and important to show love to others. Jesus said what you do to the least of my brothers you do to me. There is no point in doing good works for the sake of doing works though. It’s likes saying I’m committed to doing good works. It should be that you are committed to Christ and out of that, good works will flow. Also I know Warren is speaking cautiously as he is being sensitive to his audience but should he really say “what I call the good news” or should he simply say, the good news? As Christians, we believe that Jesus is the good news, not just to Christians but to the world.
“You know what I discovered is when you walk down the middle of the road you get hit coming and going,” This statement by Warren is one thing he said that I believe he should learn from. We are not called to walk down the middle of the road. We are called to take the narrow path. Jesus warned us to be hot or cold but not to be luke warm or he would spit us out of his mouth. We are to reach out to others but we should be careful not to compromise our beliefs.
Many well known Christians such as Warren and Bono and to some extent Bill Hybels are into publicly making a big deal about works and caring for others and while they’re underlying ideas are good and loving, we should be careful not to follow a gospel of social justice. The Good news is that Jesus died for us to be reconciled with the Father, while we were yet sinners. That should not be watered down with anything, no matter how nice it sounds.
Rick Warren said he is not interested in dialogue but projects. Dialogue is the most important thing because it is through dialogue that we share the truth of Christ. It is popular to say that you should spread the Gospel at all times and use words when necessary. I think our actions should speak to what we believe so that our words don’t ring hollow but dialogue is still important. If someone else said what Warren said, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Warren however, said to the Muslim audience that he doesn’t want anyone to compromise their conviction. I think we should treat others with respect but knowing the truth how can a Christian pastor say to someone from another religion don’t compromise your conviction? How does that leave room to share the truth?
To me it just seems that everything Warren does and says seems to indicate that maybe Warren believes there are many ways to God. Jesus however said that He is the way, the truth and the life. Maybe Warren does not believe in many ways to God but his testimony of Jesus seems weekend by his actions in partnering with Muslims and fighting social issues as a priority.
Comments
The main question you ask is why Rick is speaking at the ISNA conference? While I do not wish to offer an apologia for ISNA, I would refer you to multiple articles that describe the organization’s goals in reaching out to other faiths, including Judaism, and denouncing terrorism (Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the leader of the largest branch of American Judaism, addressed the convention two years ago; also see the AP story on July 1 by Zoll, and stories in the Christian Post, Church Solutions and even the Washington Times in the past week).
What I would like to clarify is Rick’s message and motive. You claim that Rick probably doesn’t have an agenda, but I would like to assert that it is his lifelong agenda that led him to accept the invitation to speak at ISNA. You may have noticed that outside of Saddleback Church, and Rick’s 30 year Purpose Driven Ministry to pastors, he does very little speaking to Christian groups of believers. Instead, he invests his time speaking to groups of unbel
Interfaith talks with Muslims are a waste of time as they change nothing. They tell the West what they know we want to hear and move forward with their agenda. The problem with Islam is getting worse and worse across the West. It is time to end all Muslim immigration.
I do not think that apart from the return of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that change will happen, which is final, easy to see and understand and without question of motivation. The article points out that believers everywhere can be misundestood by their actions and be thought to be doing things other than the spreading of the gospel and brought into question. Unless the message is clear: That Jesus came according to the scripture, that he died according to the scripture, and that he rose again according to the scripture, the message being that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgivness of sin. Believing in the heart and confession with the mouth of that fact is the point of submission to our Lord, without which there can be no salvation of man. Politics is for giving to Caesar his things, worship and the submitting of the heart is for our Lord. Public charity is great, but unsaving. The gospel of the Lord Jesus is unpopular but the only way to cure the world.
Muslims believe, that Jesus was one of the mightiest messengers of God that he was the Christ, that he was born miraculously without any male intervention (which many modern-day Christians do not believe today), that he gave life to the dead by God's permission and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission. In fact, no Muslim is a Muslim if he or she does not believe in Jesus!
What will also surprise the christians is the fact that the Muslim does not take the holy name of Jesus, in his own language, without saying Eesa, alaihi assalam ("Jesus, peace be upon him").
Mention in the Quran
And that in the Holy Quran Jesus is mentioned twenty five times.
For example:
"We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit" The Holy Qur'an,Chapter 2,Verse 87
"O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary..." The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 3, Verse 45
"...Christ J
Mohammed accepted Jews and their beliefs until the Jews said that he was not a prophet,he then ordered a war on them and many were killed.This is what worries me most about Muslims,Obama and Warren want the US to be educated in their faith and belief,what if we as a country deny them?
Akhter,
Actually many Christians no about what you said. But what you say about Jesus is very different from Christianity. Similarities don't make for a nice mix of religion. Christianity is pointless if Jesus was only what you said. Christianity recognizes that Jesus was not merely a prophet and he didn't just do things with God's permission. He is God. The Bible says that even the demons believe in Jesus. But belief that he existed is not what's important, believing and accepting Him as savior is what gives salvation.
Hi, the writer is correct that bringing people to Jesus is the most important thing. Christians CAN'T respect other religions because of John 14:6 but we can respect people and their "rite" to choose not to follow Jesus.
akhter: the fact that Jesus is mentioned in the Koran doesn't mean anything to Christians. The bigger issue is that Mohammed is not mentioned in the Bible or anywhere else for that matter and pointing to Deuteronomy 18:18 in the Bible does not work because that speaks about Jesus.
Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted, if so the entire Bible can not be trusted so using the above verse can't work but if Muslims believe that Bible has not been corrupted then they will have to believe what the Bible says and Jesus is totally at odds with Mohammed.
Have you ever considered that fact that the Bible was written by about 40 authors over about 1500 years and that Koran only consists of what one man said?
There is no other way but Jesus.
John 14:6
Joh
When Paul entered a town and saw many shrines to many gods, he must have felt hopeless as to how he might find a way out of a burning building, so to speak. So, having no way out, what does he do?
He goes further in.
Instead of condemning the shrines and belittling what the Greeks had come to accept as truth, he entered in and carefully searched for a shred of truth within their culture upon which he could plant his flag of truth.
Paul did not dishonor or discredit their ideas of truth, but found within their belief system a shred within it of common ground, whereby he could plant the cross of Christ.
We must look, today, for a culturally relevant common ground from within the burning buildings of the nations and tribes. And we must be humble enough to accept that within their truth there must be something genuine upon which we might construct a bridge which leads out of the burning building, instead of walls and motes, which only trap people within.
I realize that it takes a lot of courage to walk into a village and examine its shrines, considering with ut most respect just what in the world it is that they honestly believe as truth. But we have no other way out, but to go further in, sir.
You say that in so doing we are unevelnly yoking ourselves with our neighbors. I beg to differ with you. Moses was commanded to hold the bronze serpent up high on a pole so that the people could be afforded the dignity of raising for themselves their own eyes and looking upon it for their healing. Moses was never commanded to beat the people with the bronze serpent!
We aren't to take the cross of Christ and beat people's ideas of the truth with it, nor to beat them over the head with it. We are to plant the cross of Christ, so that the people, whose dignity is worth more than many sparrows, might look upon and examine it for themselves.
Kate,
I agree with your first comment, but Paul used those truths to start a conversation not a service project. That is the key difference. It was dialogue, Rick Warren has said he is not looking for dialogue.
Kate,
The bronze serpant wasn't an Idol. God commanded Moses to make it so that it would be used to heal those biten by the snakes. This has nothing to do with making partnerships with muslim groups. The bronze serpant was to be used for the Israelites in response to moses prayer for the people.
I think, and this is only my opinion, as my calling has been to plant the truth in the Atheist fortress [a seemingly hopeless endeavor these days]...I think that Rick Warren is searching, as Paul searched, for some common, culturally relevant ground upon which he might plant the flag of truth.
I do not think the man is of evil motive and intent, but I do not know the man, personally. I can only speak from experience. And it is my experience that sometimes a person with the truth has to use careful discrimination when choosing a place within a village to plant that truth. It is not, by any means, a sting operation, but a long process demanding much patience from individuals.
There is a time to draw up sword and do battle for our truth. There is also a time to enter a village carrying our warriors bow in the manner of peace, with our bow-strings to the ground.
With the Atheists, I see no way out, guys. So what have I done? Endeavored to go deeper in, to search for some art
Sorry, too many characters in my dialogue...no pun intended! As I was saying, with the Atheists I see no way out. I've endeavored to go further in to search for some artifact of genuine truth upon which I might plant the truth of Christ. It does not really take much dialogue, and in fact, too much speech draws up suspicion with the dignty of man. Christ commissioned us to be gentle as doves, but shrewd as vipers. I ask you this, then. What do you believe is a culturally relevant common ground? It is difficult to answer this, because it varies with each culture of unbelievers we encounter. This is why we must endeavor to go deeper in and take the time to humbly learn their beliefs and their culture, before asserting ours. Our God is not a colonizing God, but cares for our dignity, allowing us to examine for ourselves the truths presented us.
Also, I think you are misunderstanding my use of the bronze serpent in my analogy, here. All I am saying is that we believers have been entrusted with the cross of Christ, which Christ compared to the serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness.
We possess the truth that heals the nations, brother. We must be shrewd in these modern times as to how and where and when we plant this flag of truth in the unbeliever fortresses. The dignity of all men, including unbelievers, is a reality which must be taken under consideration. To beat people with our truth and belittle their understanding of the truth is not a very shrewd manner, but rather quite barbaric and rash.
It is quite easier to force our truth upon others, but I am telling you from experience that this will never work, due to this reality of mans dignity. The unbeliever is deeply invested in his beliefs. We must respect and recognize their construction of truth, and seek within it something genuine upon which to plan
Let's just speculate together about Rick Warrens methodology in planting the flag of truth in the unbelievers fortress. How else can we go about winning the Muslim over, if not by first removing our hat and respecting the real fact that this fellow already possesses a well constructed idea of what he honestly believes to be the truth? Or for that matter, the Atheist, or Christian Scientist, or the Buddhist, or the countless other claims to the truth which actually are a reality in our modern world.
One person commented, saying that interfaith talks with Muslims are a waste of time as they change nothing...
But how are we to know what will become of something we have only planted, but not perhaps been given the priviledge of watering and seeing the fruits appear as a result of our planting? This is not shrewd thinking, but a cop out, and simply means we should give up on our neighbor who is Muslim.
Finally, do you have a more strategically sound method for leading the unbelievers out, other than going deeper in? This idea of Rick's may actually be the shrewdest move we have left in our arsenol, at this point.
When Paul entered that town, he saw that the Greeks ideas of truth were very firmly established. He saw no way out, but to go further in.
What is your strategy? If it is in agreement with the comments which in essence say to give up on our unbelieving neighbors, then how are we to go forth with our commission?
It may be true that we will never convince the unbelieving masses of the truth, but what if there are two-hundred in the city, will we not go in for two-hundred? What if there are ten in that city who might be saved? Will we not go in for those ten? What if there are only two in that city who will turn to the truth and be saved? Are not those two worth entering into that burning building?
One last thing and then I am done. Some are called to plant. Some to water. Some to witness and tend to the sprouting of a tiny green shoot. Some are called to the high priviledge of seeing the reaping of a harvest of a soul. I cannot speak for those latter callings, but only for my calling, which is to plant the truth.
I have never seen the fruit of my labor. But does this, then, mean that I should give up and stop planting? Especially if this is my calling? Who am I to agrue with the call that was allotted to me within this commission?
I look for fertile ground, and avoid sandy soil, thorny ground, and rocky ground. This is what is meant by being shrewd. History has proven to us that the colonization of our truth is a failure and a mistake from the get go. It only causes the hardening of the hearts of the people, turning our planting soil into hardened rock, where no truth can really take any sort of root. We must enter in and search for the fertile soil.
Kate,
A lot of what you say is true but it all involves dialogue, Rick Warren is not interested in dialogue but projects. He seems, in my opinion to have crossed the line between respecting Muslims and respecting the Muslim faith. If all religions, except the truth of Christ are not true, there can be no respect of the falsehoods and lies from Satan.
Planting and growing and everything can take time but the starting place should be, Jesus is the truth and the only truth. You can work with Muslims when they disagree with you but they have to know upfront that you don’t believe there religion is truth. You can respect each others differences without saying what Mr. Warren said “I don’t wan’t anyone to compromise their convictions.” I do want them to compromise their conviction and see that it’s a lie and so should he.
Besides what Rick Warren said to the Muslim group, he has shown that he is committed to what he calls the common good. Jesus is the only common good. You decide fo
for yourself about Rick Warren, but I believe what he is doing is dangerous and wrong.
I do not have any beliefs about Rick Warren, as I do not know him personally. I am only saying that it is rash to make judgements as to his methods when we do not know his motives. We are commanded to test the spirits. What I do know about the man is limited, but I don't gain from that which I do know, that he is an evil man trying to water down the truth of the Message we are commissioned to plant.
I am in no position to make such a judgement against the man, when I am also of the sort who, instead of despairing at the prospect of no out, I, too, have endeavored to go further in. Now, this going further in can be dangerous. A person must maintain tight relationship with Christ in order for this to work.
I'm curious. What is your strategy for planting our truth in the minds of todays modern unbelievers? Are you finding success? If so, then by all means continue in your methods. But not all are called to minister to those you are called to minister to. Some are called to
Kate, You are completely missing everything I have said. I am not judging his motives but his action. We can judge someones actions. Motives don't matter if the actions are wrong. For a Christian we can't live by an attitude of "the ends justify the means." We are not all called to minister but minister does not mean to share the truth, because we are all called to spread the gospel and we are all called to give an answer for the hope we have. Planting, sowing, watering and every other phase involves sharing the truth of the Gospel. What determines what part we play is how the person recieves it, not our actions.
"Motives don't matter if the actions are wrong."
You lost me here. Jesus on the cross, "Forgive them Father (their ACTIONS), for they know NOT what they do (emphasizing MOTIVES)".
Motives is what matters ultimately, but may our actions be as Christ. If my daughter does something bad, I take into account her motives, so I disagree with "Motives don't matter if the actions are wrong." statement you made. That is why we are NOT to judge. You seem educated in the Word enough to understand this.
You say that the ends does not justify the means...do you mean that shrewd actions are evil actions? Let's say that the only common ground a missionary shares with a Muslim in the Middle East is the common ground of yoking together with him or her to raise some money to feed some hungry children?
Christ was a controversial individual, just like Warren. He was condemned for "going in," remember? He was well known for associating himself with desparately wicked sinners who were rejected by their society due to their immorality. Think about the woman known for her immoral behavior with the men of the town whose tears washed the feet of Christ and then she used her hair to dry his feet, and then used her costly perfume to annoint his feet.
And where would we suppose we would find Christ in our modern society. Probably at a gay rights meeting. Probably in among the Arabs, eating and drinking with them. Why? Because there might be two hundred in there who are ripe for the planting. There might be ten...I dare say, Christ would go in even if there were only one among thousands who might benefit from the planting of truth in his fortress.
C.S. Lewis wrote about one thing I will never forget. He had said, and I paraphrase, that all the other belief systems than Christianity aren't wrong all through. He was correct in the saying. I believe that, just as there was a common ground for Paul in that city in Asia Minor in that shrine to the unknown god, there is a grain of truth in every belief system out there. It is at this point where the Christian must 'take the limit,' as it were, to find out what is going on as x approaches the undefined.
Do you endeavor to get to know the carefully constructed belief systems of those who you seek to introduce to the truth of Jesus Christ? or do you consider their entire system of beliefs complete rubbish! I tell you the truth, there is something startlingly reverent about every human 'self.' Each self has an identity which he or she has spent an entire life time constructing. To come in and belittle their construction of the truth puts enmity between the Christian and the Muslim [or the homosexual or the buddhist or the christian scientist, or the atheist].
This profits the kingdome nothing. I understand that our truth, without needing to beat people over the head with it and belittle them with it, in and of itself is already a painful truth to hear, let alone to accept. We must not only gain the trust of the unbeliever, but we must gain their respect as well. We must not only pretend to give a s h i t about their elaborate belief systems, but we must genuinely respect it and
I've just got one thought on all this. God called all sorts of personalities. Some of us just aren't the religious sort, and are not wired to go around saying, "repent for the kingdome of heaven is at hand." Some of us are hard wired to pull back and look for strategic ways to get in and get out of a village, which in this case can be comprised of a single man sometimes, and successfully plant this very truth you are saying must only come through one method. Your method is to simply go in, spill out the dialogue straight from the Bible, and then get out.
Nothing wrong with your method. It is actually quite effective for a lot of people. But I'm going to let you know that in my case this method would be a complete failure. To certain people the Bible [and you have to admit to this, please admit to it] has been misused to beat people over the head with the truth, without the least consideration of the original truth and faith constructions of the village and culture we are ente
This can be done. A person can value another culture and their belief system, while not endorsing it. Paul showed us and Jesus Christ showed us that the way to the persons heart is through 'knowing them.' Remember skeptical Nathaneal? Remember the woman at the well? What did it for them? Was it Jesus miracles or wisdome? No. I tell you the truth, it was because Jesus knew who these people were, and this communicated to them one thing: that they were valuable enough to get to know.
I guess that Rick should have told the Muslims that they are wrong and that he can not befriend or work with them because he is a Christian and they aren't. That's hardly the way that Jesus told us to be, but that is how some legalistic, narrow-minded Christian critics feel that we should be.
Maybe we should kill the infidels and allow poor Muslims to starve. That would show the love of Christ!
I know that this may sound crazy, but maybe this is a door that God is opening so that the Gospel can be shared with millions of Muslims that would have never heard it. Maybe God wants us to love and bless our "enemies" and to do unto others like Jesus told us to do.
Larry Amon is coming from a place of fear, as expressed in his statement about Rick doing something "dangerous and wrong," but I believe that Rick sees God's hand in opening doors that until now had been tightly closed.
Ultimately, it's all up to God, and we have to trust that his will is going to be done.
LL,
Before you make accusations try carefully reading what I wrote. My problem is not Rick Warren reaching out to Muslims but the fact that his words to them express that he is not interested in dialogue and then his actions seem to back those words up. We also don't have to form formal partnerships with Muslim groups to help Muslims. Look at what the Joshua Fund is doing joshuafund.net.
An obsession with ideological purity is a sign of two things: a weakening faith, and a need to shift blame.
Mr. Warren needs to remember one thing, the only way is through Jesus Christ.............
Dear Larry Amon,
Thank you for bringing the issue of RIck Warren's Islamic Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture to your readers attention. I have written two books on the subject. Yesterday I received an SOS letter from a distraught Christian in Silver Springs, MD whose church was taken over by PDC and wants advice fleeing and where there is a good church to flee to that is not Rick Warren accomplice. Any suggestions??
Please be alerted to the following. Leonard Sweet is one of Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan collaborators.
Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven Global Peace Plan vs. Scripture
New Website
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com
(now also in Chinese language)
I hope and pray that you will sound the alarm on His Holy Hill and in Maryland!
WARREN JESUS, MUSLIM JESUS, OR BIBLICAL JESUS, WHICH ONE IS THE REAL JESUS?
is now also just posted on the media page.
Thank you for your highly esteemed consideration!
Sincerely in Christ,
James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com
Mr. Warren needs to only read parts of the Koran to see what the Islamic Muslims plan is. Kill, kill, kill! It is part of their cult and you, Mr. Warren, will not change it one bit, in fact they will use you to get what they want, America! Don't be stupid!!
I read some of the comments, lets not forget that when Paul went to speek to the Greeks, he preached to them and was very bold in speaking about Jesus Christ! He did not congregate their religion with his. He told them, thier is only one God-Jesus. He went there to tell them the truth and nothen but the truth. (JESUS) This does not sound like this is what Rick Warren is doing. He is joining in with people who believe in a God who does not like Christians and wants to kill Christians. We cannot worship with our enemy. However, we can go to them to tell them about Jesus with love. We can bring them in our churches to tell them about Jesus! And then, and only then, we can worship with them. Thank you Larry Amon and may God bless you.
Thank you, Rickj, you are so right!! This is what they are doing. The Muslims are being smarter then the Christians are. Wake up America, it's time to read the bible and ask, just simply ask God yourself who these people really are and what there agenda is and just simply ask God to show you who he is and he will, in a way that you will see Him, (Jesus for yourself) and then you will really know what's going on and only then is when you will understand all of this. We are not to worship with people who believe in some other God!! This is a mockery to the one and only God-Jesus!!! Be careful and be on guard!!! This is what God tells us to do!
I just want to give a simple advice.
Go read the Quran for yourselves. Then you can start giving opinions on Islam.
How can you tell me what's in the Quran, if you never read it.
I think the article written is very good and addresses some real concerns. Thank you for taking the time to present this. As you have demonstrated the ease of questioning one's statements or remarks I bring out just one caution from your own comment..."Jesus warned us to be hot or cold but not to be luke warm or he would spit us out of his mouth." There is no such thing as a "cold" Christian. We are told in 2 Peter 2:21-22 "For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the Holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and, 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.'" Hot (boiled, fervant) being passionately in love (agapao - deep) with God (greatest commandment). Cold (chilly) being dead (better to have never known). Lukewarm (tepid) = doubleminded, untrustworthy, or as Christ said in Matt. 5:23 "'And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" We must be careful not to make "cold" some kind of an option for a true believer. Cold to describe one's condition in scripture is never something "refreshing" but dead or "hard of heart", etc...
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