The PlasmERG noble gas motor is not, just as the original Papp engine was not, a 'pulsed plasma motor'. Plasma is not retained and 'pulsed'. The plasma is recreated with each power stroke and returns to a steady state, a gas, on each return stroke, thus the name Plasmic Transition.
 The PlasmERG motor design. |
Nobel Gas Engine
Imagine an engine that could run on very small quantities of an abundant noble (inert) gas mixture using a process that turns the gas to plasma with each cycle of the engine, like live steam power, yet it is sealed, creating no pollution and minimal noise. Now, imagine driving your car, day to day for a year on less than $50 for fuel.
The Plasmic Transition Process is the subject of various patents pending by the PlasmERG Inc. company of Iowa. John Rohner founded this company in 2008 to be the means to disseminate, develop and license this technology to other motor manufacturers for their own use.
This process originally called the "Papp Engine" did run in 1982 and was then lost until John, and his partner Haik Biglari rediscovered it and applied modern science to the system to explain the process and filed their patents, presently pending. The original process was based on information originally patented by the late Joseph Papp, whose patents are now expired.
John Rohner, a well-known new product design engineer, was originally contacted in 1979 by Robert Rohner, his brother, with a schematic for the controller Papp had designed. Unfortunately, John was busy with several other projects so he turned it over to his brother Tom. That controller, or a best guess at it, is shown in the schematic below. It is a simple crude system, by today's standards but very modern for 1982, and easy to understand. It was the key element to the motor running, at that time.
PlasmERG has designed two motors for OEM use. One is an opposed 2 cylinder, 120 cubic inch engine and produces a maximum of ~300 HP. The second is a 6 Cylinder 360 cubic inch engine and produces a maximum of ~1500 HP. (Ref.)
The motors are also being co-developed with a sister company in Canada. John Rohner has personally fronted the total investment for this development thus far. As the company moves toward manufacturing they are seeking investment partners by trading stock for investment. Their first "real" manufacturing plant will cost about 10 million dollars. The alternative is to simply go as they are and create licenses from automotive and truck motor makers until they can get OEM production up.
The current plan is to provide 500 to 1000 test sites in underdeveloped nations for water pumping and power generation as "humanitarian" test sites. This should allow the time needed to get production understood and patents completed.
The company believes the Plasma Transition Process motors will create a direct replacement for the internal combustion engine, with no pollutants and greatly reduced noise. "It is PlasmERG's dream to make the world a better place to live without having to use Petroleum or even Biofuels," says Rohner.
The expected run time of a motor from a single cylinder charge is over 3 months continuous, so significant money can be saved as well by not having to purchase fuel except rarely. To relate that to a typical consumer, this is about the same amount of time they drive now in a year, and the fuel should cost less than $50 per refuel.
How it Works
John Rohner stresses that the PlasmERG motor is not, just as the original Papp engine was not, a "Pulsed Plasma motor". Plasma is not retained and "pulsed" as others have supposed. The plasma is recreated with each power stroke and returns to a steady state, a gas, on each return stroke, thus the name Plasmic Transition. Creation of the initial power and creation of plasma, for expansion, is derived from a fusion event with a side affect of a limited "chaotic" fission event causing a Plasmic Transition, contained in a sealed two-cycle rotating crankshaft motor system. This motor is a power system that crosses the previous borders of nuclear physics utilizing elements of each to advantage in the result.
There are two parallels to explain this Plasmic Transition and power production of this motor in our world. First is natural lightning, which uses an almost identically similar Plasmic Transition Process; and the second is live steam which provides the same torque over rotational speed event characteristics. There is nothing in the ordinary internal combustion motor's operation that is comparable to either of these processes.
The most crucial part of PlasmERG's motor operation is the Electronic Control System (ECS), comprising the following elements:
- Programmable micro computers;
- Radio frequency power generator;
- HV spark coil initiation driver;
- Various electromagnetic coil voltage switches providing base (resting) or variable (engine speed) voltages for all cylinder or reaction chamber electromagnetic coils;
- On-controller DC to 12 volt DC converter;
- Engine speed DC voltage (accelerator) to programmed variable voltage DC converter,
- Inter controller communications port;
- Instrument support for user panel and action port which receives commands from the user comprising by not limited to things like Run, Start, Throttle position, Hold speed, Brake application, Brake hard, various motor inputs and fuel container information.
Figure 2, below, is a block diagram of the PlasmERG developed Electronic Control System used now to make the motors work using the above elements.
Using such a programmable and flexible automatic controller allows the use of many mixtures as well as allowing for many reaction chamber variations, volumetric adaptations and gas fuel mixtures. PlasmERG has copyrighted over a dozen gas fuel mixtures thus far, in trade secret manner similar to the formula for Coke.
Operational Sequence
To start the PlasmERG engine:
- The key (operator motor on/off switch) is turned on, thereby energizing the Electronic Control System.
- At this time the ECS comes alive, does a systems check and readies itself for operation.
- Once the base system is set, the system will accept the signal from the key being turned to the "start" position.
- It will then supply the voltage to the starter motor and starts turning the motor over.
Top dead center (TDC) is the closest the piston gets to the head. As in internal combustion motors it is the point of conversion from fuel to power. Bottom dead center (BDC) is the farthest point the Piston can move down the cylinder from the head.
As the piston completes its upward stroke, the piston 1 TDC position is acquired by the microcontroller from the crank shaft mounted reluctor, or similar timing device, and the internal position clock is synced and locked. The startup/run RPM data is then loaded into the timing subsystem within the controller. In the 1982 schematic this was used to reset the multivibrator.
The motor function is dependant on a number of design variables, including chamber design, electro magnetic design and the gas mixture characteristics, but as a generality, here is how it works:
- At about 30 degrees before TDC the cylinder containment coil(s), around the cylinder, is provided a speed related voltage to "squeeze" the gas mixture slightly. This electronically reduces the cylinder volume available. In the original electronic controller on the Papp motor, this voltage was set by the operator on a wire type rheostat. In PlasmERG's controller this voltage is set by a digitally programmable DC voltage source to follow the operator speed analog input, similar to the way of a modern accelerator.
- At about 10 degrees before TDC the reaction voltage is applied to the reaction chamber electromagnetic coil to further initiate the ionization process of the gas mixture within the reaction chamber. In the Papp motor this is roughly equiv to Coil One. This voltage is set by a digitally controlled voltage source based on the RPM requirement in the PlasmERG controller.
- At about 7 degrees before TDC a radio frequency, with frequency based in run speed (10 to 38 MHZ), is applied to the loop antenna within the reaction chamber ionizing the gas mixture and warming it. In the Papp motor this has to actually happen early because of the in-chamber interface. Also in the original electronic controller this was changed by the operator. In PlasmERG's controller it is adjusted by a digitally programmable RF Generator and Linear Power Amplifier as needed for the engine speed requirements.
- At 2 degrees before TDC the HV Spark coil(s) is pulsed and this continues at 30 Hz, or as allowed by the coil, until released. In the Papp motor this had to actually happen early because of the in-chamber interface. PlasmERG redesigned the entire reaction area. Because it is still in a patent pending state, this can't be described in detail. Suffice it to say, PlasmERG, like Papp, creates an arc. But, unlike the Papp reaction system there are no radioactive components involved.
- This continues until 12 degrees after TDC or the presence of a HV Pulse is seen by the controller from the chamber pulse sensor. This sensor also is used by the automatic refueling system and instrumental feedback to the motor status unit within the ECS. This is for efficiency as the requirement is only two atoms and the sensor makes that happen. In the Papp motor there was no control but the resistance of the system had much to do with it not going astray.
- The resulting high voltage charge, 60 to 240 KV, is applied to the reactor electrodes causing a continuous arc across the small reactor space to ground in the Papp, and something similar in the PlasmERG motors.
- This arc flowing through the ionized gas mixture causes the Helium in the gas mixture (or hydrogen in large volume mixtures) to join, fusing, together. Most efficiently this typically is a two atom event, as that would cause the controller, via the chamber pulse sensor, to release the trigger arc to save reactant. In the Papp this is a degree position dependent timing.
- This reaction event creates:
• a very high temperature, roughly 5 times the surface of the sun,
• very high power equivalent,
• and as a side effect, a white to white bluish light.
This high temperature, several times that of the sun, frees protons and electrons, power and such. This then causes the gas mixture to start a chaotic fission event which releases more electrons, and transitions the gas mixture creating a plasma. This Plasmic Transition will continue to grow as long as ionized gas is available for conversion to a plasma, acting similar to live steam on a piston in a steam engine. One note about the heat . . . , the fusion event time is measured in billionths of a second. Typically, it is the catalyst that starts the plasmic transition. Thus the heat is dispersed between reactions and is not a cumulative factor. It is NOT needed to maintain the process as the ionized gas will continue as long as it is excited to do so. It is the plasma transition, which increases the volume, as steam does, that provides the continuing push to displace the piston toward BDC. It is this fact that makes it possible to change speed by simply changing, electromagnetically, the cylinder volume. The smaller the column the quicker the fill and the sooner the piston moves down toward BDC
and removal of excitation. - This Plasmic Transition process multiplies the volume within the cylinder as the new plasma elements created require space. This expansion, as the gas transitions to plasma, drives the piston in a downward, linear, direction -- just as in a steam engine, which explains the torque delivery being flat across RPM.
- This downward push is applied through the commonly understood reciprocating motor system through the connecting rod to the crankshaft turning it and passing energy across the crankshaft, storing this mechanical energy, kinetically, in the flywheel, or load, as mechanical energy via torque, measurable in foot-pounds.
- At about 15 degrees after TDC, the RF energy excitement is released as it is no longer needed. In the PlasmERG controller this is also varied based on the motor RPM. On the Papp motor it was fixed.
- At about 17 degrees after TDC the ionization voltage provided to the reaction chamber electromagnetic coil is reduced to the resting state voltage as it is no longer needed either. The plasmic transition will continue for an instant more in the PlasmERG motor. In the Papp there may not be an equivalent. The Papp chamber magnetics are very complex and difficult to simplify for explanation. In that motor several coils are switched in order to maintain a control element overall.
- At about 155 degrees after TDC, before the piston reaches bottom dead center, the containment coil(s) voltage is reset back to the resting voltage state. This is done to release the linear pressure internally within the Cylinder and allow the plasma state, which is nearly done expanding, time to finish. The majority of the power transfer is already done.
- After the piston reaches its maximum volume or bottom dead center (BDC) position, the gas mixture will reverse the Plasmic Transition to revert and recombine back to a steady state form -- gas -- creating a partial vacuum. Remember that the plasma is a creation from the "normal steady state" gases and sustained by the excitation of them. All reactions that create a different state will return to the best "steady" state, like ice to water. So it is with plasma returning to gas. Thus the small vacuum reduces to the one- atmosphere it was at initially.
- The opposing cylinder will follow its sequence independent of Cylinder 1 and 180 degrees out of phase, as controlled by the electronic control system.
The same volume of gas mixture is used for reaction over and over again for an extended period of time. Loss of gas mixture is not considered because of the increased pressure during the power stroke and the vacuum during the non power stroke. So any gas leaking past the sealing rings of the pistons will be very small. The PlasmERG controller also has a refuel action to keep this from being a field problem. PlasmERG's fuel cans look like the air conditioner refueler "freon " cans used to refill a car air conditioner. They are screwed in and used as needed.
PlasmERG has defined many mixtures that will provide this same Plasmic Transition Process and result, but each mixture requires different control parameters or motor volumetric conditions.
What About Heat Dissipation?
PlasmERG sets the maximum rotational speed of a motor to 2800 RPM. The reason for that is every time the reaction occurs, there is a very large side product of heat -- five times the temperature of the sun -- but for only about a billionth of a second. So that heat gets dissipated easily, if it is not repeated too quickly. PlasmERG simulations show that the point where heat starts to accumulate is at 3000 RPM, or 50 cycles per second. At high RPMs it would take 30 minutes to get up to 10°C over ambient. Unfortunately, the warmer the chamber the more power is required for reaction. As the temperature builds up, the efficiency of the process reduces, so it would be counter productive to allow this heat build up to occur. This is why the controller has a 2800 RPM limit.
Comparing the Old and New Controllers
Here is a look at the heart of the process: The Controller:
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click on image for enlargement |
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In this 1982 Electronic Motor Control (Figure 1 above) a single signal is provided at top dead center (TDC) of the cylinder 1 piston by the crankshaft position sensor. This synchronizes the multi-vibrator that pulses the input to the binary counter at a frequency which is divided to create a binary number that addresses the read-only memories, and which switch on a signal, or signals, to drive the coils, igniter, speed or run voltages and all others based on a specific programmed one time fixed timing as required for this piston's cycle. Operational parameters are static, pre programmed into the PROMs memory, so they are not flexible to motor operational requirements.
As you can see, the PROMs are connected to various switched points on each of the two cylinders.
The timing is strictly relative to degrees of rotation of the crank as related to the cylinder 1 piston position in the operational cycle.
The switching table, to create the proper sequencing, is programmed for each cylinder's operation into that cylinder's programmable read-only memory. PROM 3 is for Cylinder 1 and PROM 2, with all value 180 degrees out of phase, is for Cylinder 2 and show affects all the electrical changes needed to make the engine work and keep the signals synchronized with the positional data.
This schematic is a best guess by John Rohner using the Papp original schematic, as supplied way back in the 1970s timeframe, along with pictures, videos and discussion with persons who were familiar with it. He thinks that this is an adequately close approximation to the electronic control for the 1982 Papp Motor that was certified and that PlasmERG has historical videos of running. He says it has been checked, simulated and could probably work.
Below in Figure 2 is a advanced electronic version, using today's standards. However, this first controller was very modern for its day and was a big improvement on what Papp originally had. " No matter how you look at it, if it had it not been for Tom's controller [above], this motor would have never been of interest or worked properly," says John Rohner. " This was the single most significant part of the historical running Motor. This, not some gas mixture, was why it worked. Hats off to Tom. Had it not been for him, this process would have remained a toy.".
The Modern Controller
Given their Electronic Control System, in Figure 2 below, PlasmERG claims to have proven the motor hardware design, as well as proving that the gas mixtures can be many things.
They say this ECS is many times more powerful and flexible than the 1982 unit above; it provides for more flexible control of the process; and it more easily adapts to various gas mixtures, reaction chamber designs, volumes and process reactions.
PlasmERG's controllers sense the reaction and can cut the arc excitation to save fuel and extend life.
In the original electronics, a single CB RF frequency was used. In PlasmERG's controllers they tune this RF energy over a range from 10 to 38 MHz to best optimize the excitation per the motor's speed.
In the original, there had to be multiple batteries for "Run" voltages. PlasmERG solved that with a programmable DC to DC converter. So their controller runs from a single battery source creating the voltages it needs to operate.
They also sense cylinder reaction power output, so they know when to "refuel"; and they expect to be able to do this automatically on the run.
They also communicate with other ECS systems as well as the user. This is important in multiple cylinder motors to keep the cylinders in sync and balance power sharing across the complete system.
The Electronic control systems are fully programmable to take advantage of all new lessons learned as PlasmERG progresses with their objective of replacing internal combustion motors, as well as finding uses that have not yet been conceived. " Plasmic Controls, Inc.", a sister company, is the focal point for any innovative thinking along these lines.
Plasmic Controls works with Plasmic Fuel Inc to verify operational characteristics as well to maintain the best overall fully integrated experience.
Figure 2. A modern Electronic Engine Control System from PlasmERG, by it's controller development company: Plasmic Control, Inc.
PlasmERG has made many modernizations and brought the technology up to current science. This is all represented in their patents, pending etc.
They invite interested parties to come and see what is happening as they ready their manufacturing plant.
Some horsepower charts are found on the PlasmERG.com website, showing the HP delivered by the 2-cylinder motor and, theoretically, motors of 4, 6, 8 and 10. cylinders. They are actively developing a 6 cylinder motor for a heavy equipment customer that will provide over 1200 HP without cooling equipment, radiators etc.
Feel free to contact John or PlasmERG if you have any further interest in using one of their motors or would like to license the technology to manufacture one of your own.
"Let's all cut the dependency cord from the oil companies and get the world back to a green state," says John.
Visit their website at http://PlasmERG.com for more information.
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See also
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Comments
is there a working prototype or some proof of concept.
Mark
There web site smells like a scam,looks like a scam,sounds like a scam,feels like a scam,most likely is a scam.
It's good to hear that someone is carrying on the visionary work of Joseph Papp, who claimed that he had constructed a 300 mph submarine and piloted it on a transatlantic voyage to France.
www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html
When his noble gas engine killed a bystander at demonstration in a parking lot, he blamed Nobel prize winning physicist Richard Feynman for
the "accident".
www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papparticle2.html
I've been invited to come see a working prototype. Estimate window: 4-6 weeks from now. From what I understand, they've operated a number of working prototypes. The New Energy Congress has been asked to review the tech when PlasmERG is ready.
Another load of particularly unfragrant fertilizer hits the streets. Among the more ridiculous claims:
"And of course with no exhaust there is also no noise."
"...there is no cooling, not even air cooling fins."
"And it creates no discernible heat."
Thermodynamics 101: For any heat engine to operate, thermal energy must be taken from a heat source and delivered to a heat sink. The difference in absolute temperature between the two determines the maximum percentage of source heat energy that may be converted to mechanical work. With no heat exhaust, or heat sinking the device has no capacity to perform work. There are no exceptions.
Physics 101: Energy is conserved. Engines convert energy from one form such as electricity or chemical fuel to a useful output. No known chemical fuel has the energy density necessary for what they claim.
This scam will die ugly just like mylow's charade.
Richard Feynman should've stuck to physics and left investigation to CSI. Feynman alleged Papp sabotaged his own demonstration. Actually, Papp expressed concern when Feynman stalled holding the plug to the controller. When Papp wanted to plug it back in Feynman delayed him. That's apparently what caused the explosion. Feynman himself said that Papp became frantic for him to return the plug. If he was about to destroy his own engine upon replugging the device, why would he be frantic as if something bad were to happen if it stayed unplugged? Why not blow it up while Feynman was holding the plug? How did he blow it up? Despite his impressive resume, Feynman showed his poor character & judgement outside of physics when he made his unfounded statements of Papp's supposed skullduggery to "keep the game going a little longer." The police investigation of the "accident" showed no wrong doing by Papp, such as explosives preplanted in or near the engine.
Here's the other POV:
www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html
Quincy, Papp was a consummate liar. That submarine story of Papp's tells all.
Mallove was a nut and a liar. Mallove and his IE rag has promoted as overunity devices that were anything but. Mallove claimed Feynman pulled the plug on Papp's contraption without permission. That was a lie.
In 21 years after the Gardena incident Papp failed to produce a working replacement, including with the aid of the Rohner brothers.
If you think that TRW or DoD would abandon a technology just because of one explosion, you don't know TRW or DoD.
The Rohner brothers have picked up Papp's circus act. Proof of operation will always be next week, next month, next year. Deposits and investment opportunities are available now and will be everyday.
What a waste of time to read this. All this detail about control circuits and other junk. The bottom line is the claim of producing fission from an arc passing through helium or hydrogen. "a limited "chaotic" fission event". Not fusion mind you. Enjoy that demo. Once again, something will come up. It will never happen, and you will not learn from your mistake.
For all of you that think Papp was a scam artist.
I would be the first to agree. His grandstanding projects were laughable. He was also two other things. First, and foremost Greedy. Second is he probably had an "accident" in his lab and he never understood it. He was NOT a physicist and what we know now had not been done yet.
I also disagree with those people that claim Dr. Feynman did not pull the plug. He has admitted he did. The witnesses at the time said he did. Understanding the process as I do and the contraption that was doing it I fully understand why it did what it did. The Univ of CA did not settle just to be nice. As to DOD and TRW not going forward it was the lack of cooperation from Papp. I am NOT a fan of Papp.
he did the whole world a big disservice by not getting together with GOOD physicists and getting this to us.
Who cares about Papp or his exploits? What has that to do with this motor or how it works? Nada.
Sorry you don't like our web site but it at least i
I love the comment "never produced a working motor". What part of space do you live in? The motor has a certification Document from the US Patent office and was tested by a well know testing group. And if you think Bob's videos are fake you are in for a real shock. The videos even show the motor running into a Dyno.
Look close it would take, in 1982 terms one huge electric motor to produce that power and turn the motor as well. You see one? NO.
So please get your history at least read before you make these comments.
Bob designed that hardware and Tom designed the Controller and that puppy ran quite well.
Their problem was Papp was standing over their shoulder disallowing many things that actually could have made it better.
Papp was more a hindrance than a help.
But it did run. When he died the world decided
it was "cold fusion" which hung them getting another to work.
Penny you really need to read an article before you drop such dribble.
Thermodynamics 101 should have taught you something about heat. It evidently did not. Had you read the article you would understood why there is no immense heat buildup and even how to get the heat buildup. Had you read the article you would have seen that the motor is limited to 2800 RPM to keep the thermal build up from happening. As a matter of fact the dispersion of heat, to a chamber wall, is counterproductive to the operation of the motor. Just as it is in a Fusion reactor or any other use of plasma. The whole job of the electromagnetism in this, as in Fusion reactors, is to contain the mass from a heat sinking obstacle. You seem to think that this is a heat driven, via combustion or such, motor. Again read the article. Do you see this being a driving force. The expansion of the Plasma, just as in Live steam motors, is what does the job. The article is clear enough.
There is Heat for a pico second.
Now one last comment.
Someone said "Rohner brothers".
Let me correct you.
First I was NOT in Florida for that motor running and was not involved in it at all. I was busy designing other new products.
Second my brothers are mad at me for figuring the motor out, applying for patents and wanting to "license" the technology to anyone that wishes to build motors.
I want to create a group that can pass information amongst each other freely. It is my wish that this motor becomes general usage as quickly as possible.
I have no interest in being the "only" manufacturer of it, as my brother does.
I could care less about money. I am 68 and have funded this totally, so far, from my own funds. I could easily have sold the whole thing some weeks ago for a good amount. I am nothing like greedy.
I AM concerned over where we are going with our current technology.
I would love to see farmers etc be energy independent.
If you wish more info then sign an NDA and I'll share it. It is criti
opps one more comment.
Jonathan, I am sorry you don't find the web site useful. I personally created them and as an engineer and not a web designer they probably are not what a $30K professionally designed site would be. But to me the money is better spent to continue building and testing new motors.
I doubt you can find another site that presents real data and nor BS.
If you would like to send me a critique of all the idiosyncrasies you think needs fixing I would be happy to consider them and when i get time incorporate them
Till then It is my way to get out information in the most engineering friendly way possible.
They are not meant to ge glitzy or sales oriented so I hope you will tell me what is wrong with them.
The 'history" of the Papp Engine is fraud. That is exactly why I never use that term and have no wish to be associated with it.
You will soon enough see that this is not a scam. Or why would I be so open or use my own money?
John admits that Papp was a con artist.
John relies on Papp as the basis of his story.
John claims Papp's motor was working in 1982. John can prove no such thing. The motor was never independently tested. Magic shows do not make magic motors.
John claims that a patent means a device works as claimed. That's false.
John likes to have it both ways.
John reinvents the history of the Gardena incident.
Fact: Papp said the AC plug was needed ONLY to power "MONITORING instruments". Papp did not say it was needed for CONTROL.
Fact: Papp gave R.F. express permission to pull the plug and hold onto the cord.
John it's a bad idea to challenge penny on science. She is right. The laws of thermodynamics contradict your combined claims.
Your engine claims are false. Your claims of fission and fusion are false. You are soliciting money based on your false claims. The first dollar you take turns your activity into fraud.
Dear E Lazardo
Since you can rewrite history, specifically the witnesses, reported data and Dr Feynman's own words and since a validation certificate issued by an independent source to the USPTO stating their finding on the running engine does not exist nor reliable videos and since you know more about fusion, Fission and plasma that any expert, I guess you must be correct.
Your problem is that it does work.
Contrary to anything you seem to know better than anyone else or even those professionals that work in the fields.
Good luck with whatever it is you do.
ps. If you or Penny has some expertise in Nuclear Physics please feel free to note your specific qualifications and what research group you belong to for the group. I will be happy to get in touch with them and show them their errors.
Thank You
Mr. Rohner here you may find a copy of R.F.'s personal account of the Gardena incident:
www dot museumofhoaxes dot com/comments/papparticle2 dot html
R.F. states there that it was Papp who pulled the plug. R.F. assumed Papp had a hidden battery or such and asked Papp if he, R.F., could hold the cord. According to R.F., Papp agreed.
"There were quite a few wires running from the engine down to where Mr. Papp and the spectators were standing, into a set of instruments used for measurement; these included a variac, a variable transformer with a dial which could put out different voltages. The instruments were, in turn, connected by a cord to an electrical outlet in the side of the building. So it was pretty obvious where the power supply was. "
Your stories of fission and fusion are really stupid. Anyone familiar with fission or fusion realizes instantly what a liar you are. If either process were occurring in your engine, you would have died from radiation poisoning.
You will not demonstrate a working motor in August or ever.
R.F. quote continued:
"The engine started to go around, and there was a bit of disappointment: the propeller of the fan went around quietly without the noise of an ordinary engine with powerful explosions in the cylinders, and everything- it looked very much like an electric motor.
Mr. Papp pulled the plug from the wall, and the fan propeller continued to turn. 'You see, this cord has nothing to do with the engine; it's only supplying power to the instruments,' he said. Well, that was easy. He's got a storage battery inside the engine. 'Do you mind if I hold the plug?' I asked? 'Not at all,' replied Mr. Papp, and he handed it to me.
It wasn't very long before he asked me to give me back the plug. 'I'd like to hold it a little longer,' I said, figuring that if I stalled around enough, the damn thing would stop.
Pretty soon Mr. Papp was frantic, so I (Richard Feynman) gave him back the plug and he plugged it back into the wall."
John Rohner claims that the electric cord powered some necessary CONTROLS for Papp's motor. Mr. Rohner claims that he KNOWS why pulling the cord caused the motor to explode.
According R.F.'s account Papp said that the cord had NOTHING to do with the motor, it only powered the MONITORING instruments. Mr. Rohner has trapped himself.
Dear E Lazardo
As you wish. I have no interest in anything you evidently have not dug into to find root cause.
FACT the Univ of CAL paid.
IF you understood the details you would know what really happened. I am not a big fan of Papp anyway and could care less how Dr. Feynman accomplished the deed. OLD History.
I would love to here your rendition of why anyone would die from the operation of the motor. You sound like a 50's Sci Fi movie.
I still would ask what your credentials are to make any statement. Your comments have no place in reality or Physics so.. Educate us.
Particularly those of us that have seen it work and do understand the process.
Explain exactly, in proper scientific terms, why it won't.
Here is a question for you.
If a event occurs 50 times a second and 1/4 of that is heat and 3/4 is cooling, how long will it take to generate 2 degrees C from ambient.
That should be simple enough.
John Rohner E Lazardo quoted Dr. Feynman. I don't think you are so foolish as to dispute the quote. The quote directly refutes your account. According to the quote Papp unplugged the cord. According to the quote Papp willingly handed the cord to Dr. Feynman. According to the quote Papp said that the cord had nothing to do with operation of the engine. The quotes tear apart your claim that you know why keeping the cord unplugged supposedly caused the explosion. It's little surprise that after E Lazardo cornered you in your lie, you no longer want to talk about that subject.
Do you really claim that your machine involves both fission and fusion? If you do, I would like the name of a single nuclear physicist who agrees with such a claim. I would love to hear your explanation of fission without the creation of long lived radioactive isotopes. If fission is your claim, please say the name of the fissile material and the fission products.
Penny it is clear that you and your friend know more than any educated scientist about everything.
I have no interest in debating with closed minds.
So have fun with your life.
The answer to your question happens in nature thousands of times each day.
No mystery to anyone with an open inquisitive mind.
Thank God for them.
Con artists hate the light of day. Confront them with facts that dispute their fairy tales, or ask them questions that will expose their lies and they scatter faster than cockroaches.
Maybe the DHS, and DOE would be interested that John Rohner claims to operate unlicensed fission and fusion reactors in his garage. We have to be so careful these days.
Penny you are of course perfectly correct about the thermodynamics involved. The engine is certainly not driven in this manner. Only an idiot would even consider proposing such a thing. However, the engines did run and was certified at 107hp in Feburary of 1983 by an Oklahoma University. During the run the engine was operated at 726rpm producing 776 ft-lb of torque (107 hp)with a % torque rise of 418. The dyno used was a certified AW similiar to the one seen operating on my website www.rohnermachine.com. The certifying professor
is willing to discuss the testing with any interested party. If you will call me and prove to me that you are Penny Gruber, I will send you a NDA for your signature and then provide you with the names and numbers. The engines were built by Bob and Tom Rohner, and we are not in any way involved with Dr.John Rohner PhD from MIT. We solicit funds only from qualified investors and only after a rigorous review by their science advisors.
Penny, If I may make a quick comment about Fenyman and the explosion. Irregardless of what actually happened, the engine ran. One of our Physicist made the following observation: "but Feynman's conclusion that nuclear energy was not involved lacks a shred of evidence. In his defense, if he had know the engine could produce 107 hp, he would have known instantly that the wire he unplugged could not have delivered this power. He was blinded by his knowledge that all manmade nuclear reactions we know of to date involve tremendous heat outputs, often along with neutrons and nasty by-products." Penny Gruber - when you can adequately explain the physics of a simple electric motor (spooky force at a distance doesn't qualify) I will say you have earned the right to so blindly attack what you know nothing about. Call me and verify your IQ. Sign the legalities. Learn
Penny - I've read your stuff before elsewhere and would like to make a convert out of you. Contact me on my website and we will get started. Only one at a time so the rest of you will have to wait.
Regarding the mumbo-jumbo that appears above, it's mostly erroneous conclusions reached by Dr. John PhD of MIT using stolen and plagiarized data from our files and those of many others. Most of the time he couldn't be bothered in rewriting his own text. Once again, Tom and I are not involved in his companies or in any other way.
One of you raised a point about safety and it may be a good one. We blow the neutron badges
continuously. Joe Papp died suddenly of stomach cancer. Maybe a coincidence. The amount of radioactive materials used is small and can be legally dumped down the toilet. It is dangerous only if ingested.
Bob Rohner, on the John Rohner whose engine claims are the subject of this blog it would be news to me that he was from MIT or has a PhD. If I understand correctly, as of last month that would be news to you as well:
www dot greenoptimistic dot com/2008/02/11/bob-rohner-co-producer-of-joseph-papp-engine-on-greenoptimisticcom/
That is you tearing down John Rohner isn't it?
On your engine claims, I work with publically verifiable evidence. My e-mail is easily found. Sterling can give it to you. If you want me to review your engine claims, send me copies of documents showing independent test evaluations or point me where they can be found in public, and I will happily review them. I would expect that after nearly 30 years you should have plenty of those.
I don't do NDA contracts. Don't send me anything you don't wish to see republished. I reserve the write to quote any materials provided me, independent of restrictive markings.
Penny
I have to say that you are in one hell of a great position. By your standards, anyone who has spent most of their life and money have no rights to the ownership of their discoveries. You on the other hand have the right to say what you please knowing that there can be no public challenge to your accusations without risking great loss.
While you and skeptics like you are busy flapping your jaws, people like me and Tom and maybe John are building endlessly to see the future. I personally want some reward for my efforts.
A NDA is a simple device that would allow us to tell you what you don't know and cannot know. Whatever I think of John doesn't matter, he also made the same offer to you. Your unwillingness to agree thus limits you and more importantly limits your comments and observations to nothing more than second-rate banter.
You have our offers. If you want to learn something, pick one. It's a win-win for you.
Bob I have not asked you to compromise what you think is yours in any way. Patent what you like, hide as trade secret what you like.
I am far less concerned with your claims of how you do what you claim, than verification of what you claim. There is no justifiable reason to hide verification of what you claim your engine delivers in return for what it is supplied. You claim engines of given power levels capable of yielding a net amount of energy for a set amount of fuel input. Where is the independent test lab report that verifies those performance claims? Such a report need not include, or may have redacted out any description of how any invention works. Since you wish to keep the fuel composition a secret, the volume and mass are sufficient. Such a report is not only something that you would not need to hide, it is something you would want to advertise broadly. Let me know when you have such a report or other verifiable public collateral.
Penny
What is your problem with reading and understanding. Even Bob has made you aware that "engines did run and was certified at 107hp in Feburary of 1983 by an Oklahoma University". He goes on to challenge you to prove to yourself that it did. YOU then balk saying you can not do such a thing. That being true you will never learn anything. Cut the hog wash take Bob up on his offer or STFU. Bob has the documentation to back his comment up and in this case it is you who are looking dumb. His web site also has videos and I challenge you to find a electric motor in any of them. Considering the year they were made they certainly are not Fantasy.
Why not explain how YOU can prove this type of motor can not work. In 2009 terms that can be verified by real physicists.
You are simply wrong and evidently afraid to face it. Why?
Your premise that there is some exposure to some radioactive fallout is just as false. Even the technology Bob is using won't do that and certainly not mine. Gro
This is quite the circus act you guys operate. It's a funny game of good Rohner / rabid Rohner. I am still laughing at the silly problem you presented to E Lazardo. Please entertain us all and solve your own problem, showing all your work as you do.
If Bob has proof of his claims he can present it. If after 30 years he still doesn't have any, there's no reason to expect that will ever change. Likewise if you have proof of your claims: present it. We can set aside all the pseudo science. Just prove you have a machine that produces what you claim on the input fuel that you claim.
Lots of people have videos including many fakes, some good some easily detected. Videos mean nothing. Lab reports from qualified, independent labs carry meaning.
Actually Penny I am having great fun with your little closed mind.
One simple NDA that you are so scared you will see something that disproves everything your little closed mind "knows". Just as Feynman "Knew" before he went, in his own words, That it would not work. Now that is a true scientist and you are doing the same.
As to the question I posed any freshman in High school physics can answer that but not you or your alter ego. Give us a break. lets see here who is the real faker...
You have a real problem with your image at the moment. Give "mamma" her computer back kid and let those of us that do have minds that work some clearance.
You have said not one thing in all your dribble that has any substance or intelligence or even interest.
It was that which made me decide not to address you any more. Closed immature minds don't deserve to have people consider them.
Please do us the favor of going home to mommy and leave us to better things.
Bye Bye Kid.
Penny, If you would do me a favor and drop me a line on my contact page I would have your email address I'm at www.rohnermachine.com only. I frankly don't know how to find it otherwise. You have my word that I will provide only verifiable data. I am not interested in insulting or attacking you. Only in converting you, maybe not all at once, but eventually it will happen. Perhaps you would be interested in acting as a skeptic during one of our investor demos. I also agree that the John's problem has no solution as stated.
So neither Penny nor Bob took HS Physics.
Nice to know.
Maybe it is just too easy a question.
Neither of my son's is through college yet and they both had the answer in about a half a sec.
It is uncommon for the esteemed inventor/entrepreneur to engage in any dialogue on this site. Of course anyone can go by any name here so there is no knowing for sure who you are conversing with. And anybody can make any claim about a technological breakthrough and have an instant follower in Sterling. If in fact it is the Rohner Brothers, they are devoting considerable time and energy to convince a small group of readers who are of little consequence for the success or failure of a product as ground breaking as theirs. This tells me they have have not done their homework or else they would have discovered that PES Network is read by those of great gullibility and little money (or wit) or bemused skeptics. The Brothers Rohner belittling comments, sense of entitlement to the reader's good opinion of them and their invention based on nothing more than repeated assertions that they are telling the truth, however preposterous it may seem, give this episode an unappealingly crass bravado.
John it's great to hear that your son is following you in development of academic prowess. If you really really want to the noses of people like E Lazardo and myself in it, I am afraid you are going to have to demonstrate the solution to your problem while showing your work. Certainly you want to put people like us in our place. Since you say the solution is so simple, if you don't show the solution it's going to look like you can't. That just won't do. You can't stand down after that double dare you issued to sign an NDA.
Make sure your answer is a specific value. You don't want to do something foolish like express the answer as variable based on parameters your question didn't specify. Finally, don't forget to show all of your work.
"Here is a question for you.
If a event occurs 50 times a second and 1/4 of that is heat and 3/4 is cooling, how long will it take to generate 2 degrees C from ambient.
That should be simple enough. "
JK plasmic transition is not a mere concealed string set at the behest of the evil Men In Black, a tortured cat, or deranged bird. The Papp, or Papf motor is in its fifth big decade emptying investors' pockets. Mylow only got a road trip to Howard Johnson's grave.
That "Mylow only got a road trip to Howard Johnson's grave" is exactly my point (and very nicely put Penny - thank you). One cannot do much better than that with PES. My social crusading is in other areas. I read PES for entertainment and to be fair for the occasional real scientific development of interest. Sterling has to make a living and this injection of theater into a mock scientific process of discovery and education is what draws the crowd apparently.
Actually JK is dead right. Conversing with any closed minds, like yours etc. is counterproductive to progress. You have demonstrated your prowess in science by not answering the simplest question and failing yo take any action that would change your "closed" mind.
Since all my money comes from MY pocket and will for a while yet I have no reason to do this except to pass on info to others.
My patents are already pending and in motion in other ways so describing things is not a problem.
When you prove to be something more than a pest I will chat until then have fun with your chirping.
As the Man said I really don't have time for you and others with such great minds.
Oh. and pick all you like there is a good deal of what I did in my younger years that you, or Bob, will never know and I am proud of my accomplishments both scholastic and otherwise.
I wish you luck. God Bless you anyway.
Foolish con artists set themselves up. Mr. Rohner has done this to himself with his two degree temperature question. There is good reason he didn't solve it for Penny. The conditions he specifies do not lead to a particular answer. The answer could be anything from an instant to forever. The value depends on conditions he did not state.
Mr. Rohner trapped himself. Then he did what most con artists do. He bluffed and fled.
Sorry all you need to solve the question is in the question (given our universal physics).
Your answer may be good on some other planet, or star system, But Not in this universe.
-- beeep, unable to answer.
This is almost too simple.
It is such fun to watch you unheads squirm.
Methinks you are showing us all who is the fakers here.
My wife is an artist and she understood and answered the question correctly.
Did you guys even get out of grammar school yet, maybe you have not had elemental physics?
or even simple logic class.
Note to John: Next time resist the urge to post while intoxicated. It's your name you want to enter in the box labelled Name, not the person you are addressing.
The rate of temperature change in a body depends on several factors none of which you listed in your problem. It's looking more and more like you haven't the slightest idea what it is you are talking about.
Sorry you can not answer my simplest of physics questions.
The answer is NEVER. The reason is simple. Give the same Translation rate for heating and cooling anything that has 3 times the cooling over one heating will stay at ambient.
Just that simple.
Now, sit down with your calculator and compute the period in a 50 cycle per second event. Divide 1 pico second and you have the relation between heating and cooling.
That was a simple case that did not have any of the heating from the electromagnetic fields nor the Plasma creation. For that the effect is 1/3 of the cycle time of each revolution. Since the reverse effect occurs the last 2/3 as the gas goes back to it's steady stae and the Electromagnetism go to a "resting" voltage.
The simple fact is: if you read up on plasma, you will find that any immediate touching of the plasma with a metal container will stop the growth. That is why it is contained by electromagnets and buffer gases. And why it dies when the containment is removed.
Let me also add that we now have co developers in Canada and China who are replicating our successes.
If I had a worry about the motor it will be with providing a back pressure, when in a vehicle, and you let up on the accelerator.
not a problem in Gensets or pumps or even Trains or small planes.
AQlso you should be aware of two developments.
First, with the proper controller the motor can run either clockwise or anti clockwise with exactly the same results.
Second the motor does not have to be two cylinder a one cylinder motor and a flywheel, like the lawnmower or Motorcycle engine, works just fine.
As I once said the Electronic control unit being smart enough to sense the motor is the key.
Once we complete our patents you will be amazed at what all we have "discovered".
Enjoy your life. But do learn how to gather better info.
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