Okay, there's been a whole bunch of news this week that suggests the so-called “Alternative” “Medicine” industry is in dire straits.
1. First up, the AP reported about the many dangerous toxins found in “natural” products. This is kinda hilarious because of course one of the chief selling points Alt. Med. practitioners make is that their products are toxin-free. Just about everyone in the Alt. Med. crowd plays the toxin gambit, insisting how real medicine is so full of evil, dangerous toxins, but not their products. And of course, the accusations of dangerous toxins in real medicine are mostly either unfounded or absurd. So now it seems the Alt. Med. people are projecting the problems with their own products onto others:
One quarter of supplements tested by an independent company over the last decade have had some sort of problem. Some contained contaminants. Others had contents that did not match label claims. Some had ingredients that exceeded safe limits. Some contained real drugs masquerading as natural supplements.
This underlines another flaw in the whole Alt Med system. Unlike real medicine, there’s no oversight protocols to properly regulate products to ensure they are safe and that people are actually getting what they pay for. System Fail.
2. Next up, a government study has determined that–-wait for it, wait for it–-almost no alternative medicines actually work:
“Echinacea for colds. Ginkgo biloba for memory. Glucosamine and chondroitin for arthritis. Black cohosh for menopausal hot flashes. Saw palmetto for prostate problems. Shark cartilage for cancer. All proved no better than dummy pills in big studies funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The lone exception: ginger capsules may help chemotherapy nausea.”
Now of course the Alt. Med. true believers (as well as those who are deliberate scammers) will write this off by simply calling it an evil government conspiracy like they always do, but of course they can't actually challenge the science in the study, which is entirely sound. And it's definitely going to discourage those on the fence from buying their products, so it's a win for good science any way you slice it. Ultimately, this is what inevitably happens almost every time carefully done tests are conducted on Alt Med treatments. The quality of the test protocols have a direct inverse relationship to how effective the treatments turn out to be. The better the study, the smaller the effect size of the "alternative" “treatment.” Test Fail.
3. Next up, after the British Chiropractic Association won the preliminary hearing of their libel case against Simon Singh (though he’s fighting the decision), the chiropractors are suddenly running scared:
. . .the McTimoney Chiropractic Association has strongly warned its practitioners to take down their websites and replace any information on their techniques with just brief contact information. Why would they do that?
Because of what we consider to be a witch hunt against chiropractors, we are now issuing the following advice:
The target of the campaigners is now any claims for treatment that cannot be substantiated with chiropractic research. The safest thing for everyone to do is […] [i]f you have a website, take it down NOW.
Ya gotta laugh at the absurdity of this. If the chiropractors are as upstanding as they claim to be, what do they have to be afraid of? Shouldn’t the chiropractors have been sure to not put unsubstantiated claims on their websites from the start? As Phil Plait says on his blog (linked to above):
It’s very telling, isn’t it, that the McTimoney group isn’t telling its people to only stick with proven methods, but instead to take down any claims that might get them sued.
Interesting.
If you go to the McTimoney website, all it has now is a terse note with contact information, with no other information on the technique at all.
Of course, if they do have unsubstantiated claims on their website, they can’t hide it now because the internet remembers all and erases nothing. C’mon chiropractors, what do you have to hide? Epic Fail.
4. Next, a cancer patient learns that herbals can interfere with proper treatment:
When Palella learned he had cancer, he added the chiropractor’s “prostate cancer protocol” to the other combos he was taking. They had names ending in “plex” and he had no idea what they contained. He swallowed more than three dozen pills each day, and was thrilled to learn that his ex-wife, also a chiropractor, could get them for half price instead of the $700 they would have cost him.
Uh oh! I see where this is going:
“I didn’t think they were medications. They’re not prescription, they’re not drugs. This is all natural substances, made from natural products,” he explained.
But he told the dietitian the truth. She was alarmed, and at his next visit, “She had a file ready for me,” Palella said. She said that some of his herbal pills could interfere with hormone treatments for his cancer, and showed him a recent medical study raising concern about that.
. . .
“I thought I was really doing a great thing and strengthening my immune system,” he said. “I feel so stupid.”
That’s why they publish Alternative Medicine For Dummies. Because that’s what you feel like after you realize that there is no alternative to real medicine. Diagnosis Fail.
5. And the final story is Deepak Chopra’s pathetic attempt to stick up for Oprah after Newsweek heavily criticized her for her promotion of pseudoscientific medicine. I addressed Oprah’s own poor attempt to justify her nonsense here. Chopra goes for the Sarah Palin defense: dodge the issues by attacking the “gotcha media.” Well as Julia Sweeney says, “Deepack Chopra is full of sh*t!” Defense Fail.
Comments
Aaarggh! The BCA have not won the case. Also, despite what you might read elsewhere, Simon Singh has not "been found guilty". There's only been a preliminary hearing which, as I understand it, was to determine if Singh had a case to answer. It is that strange preliminary ruling which is under appeal and the case won't proceed at least until all appeals are exhausted (or Singh stops appealing and decides to go to trial).
*I'm not a lawyer.
Those taking a step back and looking for a balanced view, will probably see three groups of practitioners.
1 - Competent people making appropriate claims
2 - Competent people making inappropriate claims
3 - Incompetent people and charlatans.
It is key that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. In the UK, many therapies that would previously have been called alternative or complementary (physiotherapy, chiropractic, osteopathy, acupuncture, etc.) are provided by the National Health Service governed and controlled by statutory registrar bodies every bit as active and strong as those that govern doctors, nurses and other health care professionals. We should maintain an interest in their activities, which will allow the public to be protected and for the first lot of practitioners to practise safely. The 2nd lot of practitioners need to examine not WHAT they do but HOW they describe it, in comparison with studies.
The third lot should be exposed as what they are.
you are not a doctor, you dont know how the body works. Stick to your conventional medicine. You are an ignorant. LEARN TO DO SOME REAL RESEARCH, in the right places. CHIROPRACTIC NEUROLOGY ROCKS!
You're right that I'm not a doctor but I do understand how the body works, at least better than some quack who doesn't understand how the placebo effect works. And yes, I do plan on sticking to the medicine that has been scientifically proven to work instead of that which hasn't or which has been scientifically proven ineffective in delivering the promised claims.
You know what they call alternative medicine that works?
Medicine.
PROVEN? haha. make me laugh. that's what they want you to think. why do think the placebo effect works? Man, dont make me go there. U have a lot to learn, and NO, u DONT know how the body works.
This world, and specially this country and its government is all about business. ABOUT THE MONEY. They dont care about you, your family, your health, your well being. cause simply there is no profit in there, everybody knows that, even the most retarded kid in the short bus were u used to ride knows that. So it's just simple logic. GET SOME EDUCATION, GET YOUR MIND FREE, LOOKS IN THE RIGHT JOURNALS, DO SOME REAL RESEARCH, MORON!
and by the way... CHIROPRACTIC RULES!
The placebo effect works, only not in the way you seem to think. It's so easy to just dismiss overwhelming evidence against your position as some giant unfalsifiable conspiracy. Where's your proof? But of course you have no proof. This is your excuse to avoid having to actually challenge the science you don't understand. All you've got are asinine & baseless accusations that your government ate your homework.
GO GET SOME EDUCATION, YOU STILL HAVE A LOT OT LEARN BOY.
... and keep on loving your government and its system, and the way they are killing you silently and unconsciously.
and for your information, not always you need proof of something to believe in, sometimes is just common logic and sense... but i guess u need to have the BRAINS to do that. but i guess I'm asking you too much.
Seeing is NOT believing...
"Believing IS seeing"
CHIROPRACTIC RULES... I can recommend you a good one in your area :P
My trust is not in the government but in the scientific process, with all it's transparency and outstanding track record for success over time. I'm expressing the views of the scientific consensus, so apparently you think the leading medical experts in the world should all "get some education." Not you though. Obviously, with your lack of medical education, you know far more than they do. If increasing the average life expectancy over 30 years in the last century alone is an example of how modern medicine is killing us silently, then I'll happily take the medicine & leave the voodoo cures for you.
You can believe whatever nonsense you want but if you have no good reason to believe it (i.e. empirical evidence), then all you are is a religious crank who won't ever be open-minded enough to admit when they're proven wrong w/ facts.
"Believing IS seeing" - Yeah, that's call "confirmation bias" & it's not anything to be proud of.
Dude, you are so wrong. About the 30 years living longer... wow... i can say so much abt it, that i could never end. Do whatever you wanna do, believe whatever u wanna believe.
I was like you, pure scientifically based, and all that... but that's just not thinking outside the box, thinking that there is something more there.... but you learn that thru experience in life. I guess everyone has different experiences, so you believe whatever u wanna believe, and I believe whatever i wanna believe. But the world is changing, and people is opening their eyes, seeing things they never did before.
I wont say anything else. But just to not mess with chiropractic, cause it's been SCIENTIFICALY PROVED.
We;ll see who is right in 30 years from now. Peace. God be with you, or whoever u believe in, if u believe in something.
You can say so much about the dramatic rise in average life expectancy, but you didn't. Do you deny it or are you merely attributing it to something else? Either way, please cite empirical evidence.
"I was like you, pure scientifically based, and all that... but that's just not thinking outside the box"
In other words, you used to think critically about your own beliefs but gave it up for a comforting fairytale. It's great to have an open-mind but not so open that your brains fall out
"so you believe whatever u wanna believe, and I believe whatever i wanna believe."
Uh, no. I don't believe what I want to believe but rather what can be empirically & objectively proven to be true regardless of whether I like the conclusions or not. Believing what is merely comforting is what you do, and its intellectually bankrupt.You don't even know what "proved" means, let alone "scientifically proved." I believe in lots of things, just not imaginary friends people invent to make themselves fee
...feel good
Bla bla bla. You bore me.
"gave it up for a comforting fairytale" hahaha. You are so funny.
There is something call "reasoning", or "common sense".
but u lack of that. That's why you are just a follower and pathetic loser.
But still... despite everything you said, you couldnt say crap abt chiropractic... cause guess what......
YOU CANT. SCIENTIFICALLY PROVED. So I expect you to do what you preach and start seeing one right now. Plus some work out, and some nutrition.... and I bet the chances for you to see an MD will be so minimum, to none.
Keep popping your pills, you FAT ASS!
your HAPPY PILLS =)
but it's ok... we need people like you in this world... I'll still will give you a hand whenever you reach that point in your life where your believes dont do crap for you.
I'll give you a discount. and without coupons!
Smile sunshine.
"There is something call "reasoning", or "common sense"."
In other words, I'll believe whatever I want to believe regardless of the evidence. How wonderfully unfalsifiable. As long as you deny any facts that disagree w/ you in favor of just what you want to believe, you can never be proven wrong.
Again, you don't even understand what science or proof really mean. Their just words you throw out to sound like you care what is true when you've already rejected science. Even if evidence did support chiropractic (which it doesn't), science is always subject to revision; it doesn't authoritatively demand absolute knowledge of anything. And since writing this article, chiropractic has gotten in even deeper trouble than they were already, trying to justify their "treatments" w/ studies that don't even include a control group.
But maybe your chiropractor can fix your grammar & that problem of incoherent rambling of yours too.
"In other words, I'll believe whatever I want to believe regardless of the evidence. How wonderfully unfalsifiable. As long as you deny any facts that disagree w/ you in favor of just what you want to believe, you can never be proven wrong. "
Bullsheeet. IF i have two or more evidences that contradict each other, or they just dont fit together. but they are true. I guess I have to use my "reasoning" or "common sense" to get to the bottom of it bec.
Thing that u cant do. You need to learn to do some research, and start THINKIN!
I know you are getting money for doing this job, so you are already bias. U just cant be neutral and have ur own judgment. That's just not possible. So I'm not expecting you to understand me but this is for the people reading this PIECE OF CRAP article.
Dont worry about my grammar, that at the end, people get me more than they get you.
You talk abt being proved, researched, controled group. hahaha...
No everything cant go thru that. No everythin
That's just not possible. And I'm not talking about chiropractic. Because people know it's real, So I'm not even gonna go there.
But some stuff you just cant prove right, or demonstrate, or explain why. Maybe lack of technology, maybe it's just nor possible to proved it for different circumstance. Maybe there isnt the budget to prove it. or even maybe multibillionar companies dont want things to be proves cause it will jeopradize their business, I really dont know. But it doesnt mean that is wrong. If it works for most people, but u cant tell me why, guess what, I really dont care that if It cant be proved. Sign me up!
And FYI... chiropractic is getting more people everything single day, just look at the government site, Chiropractic word is out, trying to get people better the no RX way...
soundsssss scaaaaarrrrryyyyy.... threatening...
jaja... you make laugh.... by the way... chiropractic is going world wide... second school is being opened in Spain, barcelona...
and since you guys say that the admission requirements are so long....
WELL then..
NOW IS YOUR OPPOrTUNITY... THEY ARE ACCEPTING PEOPLE WITH 60 OF IQ
HUrry...
and yes, I apologize not to you, but for the other people reading this. My grammar sucks cause i really dont wanna waste anymore of my time fixing it for this CRAPPIE WEBSITE
CHIROPRACTIC RULES!
oooppps...
and since you guys say that the admission requirements are so EASY
WELL then..
NOW IS YOUR OPPOrTUNITY... THEY ARE ACCEPTING PEOPLE WITH 60 OF IQ
HUrry... =)
and yes, I apologize not to you, but for the other people reading this. My grammar sucks cause i really dont wanna waste anymore of my time fixing it for this CRAPPIE WEBSITE
CHIROPRACTIC RULES!
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CHIROPRA
You throw around the word common sense, but what you call common sense is your personal beliefs that you already admitted has nothing to do w/ evidence, and thus has nothing to do with reason. Then you accuse me of not doing the research. The medical research is very clear on this, and it doesn't support you claims. If it did, chiropractic wouldn't be called "alternative medicine." It'd be called "medicine," and it would be taught in medical school. I'm making money for posting articles, period. I get paid exactly the same no matter what opinion I express, so your conflict of interest theory is all wet.
I don't know what you think "neutral" means, but being neutral is accepting the evidence and consensus opinions of the experts, not assuming greater knowledge than the experts. For instance, accepting that the Holocaust happened is the neutral opinion given the enormous evidence, not giving equal time to both historical experts and Holocaust deniers.
cont'd
I go where the evidence is. If you have empirical evidence that chiropractic works, feel free to present it. Hell, if you can scientifically prove (as you claim it already has been) chiropractic actually works, don't waste time with me. Apply to the James Randi Educational Foundation's Million Dollar Challenge.
But if all you've got is anecdotes, then you're betting on a house of cards. Any medical claim can be tested under properly controlled conditions w/ a control group. To claim it can't is patently absurd & a clear sign of self-delusional thinking. It doesn't take fancy technology to do a simple double blind test. If chiropractic was anything other than a placebo we'd expect it to prove more effective than a placebo. But study after study shows chiropractic is no more effective on test subjects than placebos.
To start, you dont even know the chiropractic phylosoohy, so you need to start there. Chiropractic doesnt want to be called medicine, and it cant be called medicine.
Main Entry:
med·i·cine
Pronunciation:
\?me-d?-s?n, British usually ?med-s?n\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin medicina, from feminine of medicinus of a physician, from medicus
Date:
13th century
1 a: a substance or preparation used in treating disease b: something that affects well-being
2 a: the science and art dealing with the maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease b: the branch of medicine concerned with the nonsurgical treatment of disease
3: a substance (as a drug or potion) used to treat something other than disease
4: an object held in traditional American Indian belief to give control over natural or magical forces ; also : magical power or a magical rit
where are the words "EVIDENCE" or "MEDICAL RESEARCH"
so there is
So stop lying to people that that's the reason why they dont call it medicine, IT'S NOT. It's just chiropractic doesnt fit in any of those definitions.
"Any medical claim can be tested under properly controlled conditions w/ a control group. To claim it can't is patently absurd & a clear sign of self-delusional thinking."
WOW, that is one of the most stupid thing i ever read in my life. OF COURSE U CANT, if u would've taken medical classes (which by the way chiropractors do) you would understand how things in the body really work.
I'm sorry, I never thought that humans were GODS and can actually test, and interpret, and have the capability to do anything they want.
No, Medical researches arent GODS, they are limited, they CAN NOT test everything, there are always limitations.
"The medical research is very clear on this, and it doesn't support you claims. If it did, chiropractic wouldn't be called "alternative medicine." It'd be called "medicine," and it would be taught in medical school"
Hahahaha... tell me you are not that naive... please.... I'm about to poop... for real...
are u that stupid or what...
Chiropractic is not to cure diseases or things like that... chiropractic is about well being, about nutrition, PREVENTION.
so NO, even if it's proven(according to you "not proven"), it WOULDN'T be taught in medical schools. Because guess what, simple... VERY SIMPLE LOGIC, check this out:
The LESS sick people, the MUCH MORE LESS MONEY for pharmaceutical companies.
There is just no profit.
where do u think u are living in?
wake up!, this is USA babe.
I just realized something, you really have no clue what is chiropractic about, so get some education about it first, and then talk!
are u gonna tell me now that pharmaceutical companies are Saints that just want out well being? haha. I would really like an answer for that.
"To start, you dont even know the chiropractic phylosoohy, so you need to start there. Chiropractic doesnt want to be called medicine, and it cant be called medicine."
To call chiropractic a philosophy or a medicine is equally absurd. Your appeal to trite dictionary definitions is equally absurd. Chiropractors make specific scientific claims, which cannot be validated by scientific methodology. It's a failure as a philosophy & a science. Simon Singh is correct in calling its treatments bogus. But if you're really hung up on dictionary definitions, fine:
pseudoscience
• noun beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method.
And no, contrary to your claim, chiropractic is not a legitimate medical discipline. Again, if it were, doctors who use chiropractic instead of the methods they do, which actually work.
cont'd
Further, you keep repeating the same poor rhetoric over & over again. I told you precisely what it'll take to convince me of chiropractic's efficacy. Either present high-quality empirical evidence or don't waste my time, especially if you're going to ignore the fact that chiropractic is no more effective than a placebo. THAT'S THE TEST. THAT'S IT. Can it do better than the placebo? If the answer is no (which it is), that shows that it doesn't work beyond any reasonable doubt, unless a particular flaw in the methodology can be found. No such flaw has been proposed. Lay off the quack websites & do some real research from those who don't have a financial investment in selling you chiropractic "treatments." I never claimed medical doctors were flawless "gods." That's just your pathetic straw man. But the evidence is so strong that the onus is on deniers to find a specific flaw in the methodology. cont'd
cont'd
"The LESS sick people, the MUCH MORE LESS MONEY for pharmaceutical companies. There is just no profit."
Funny how the chiropractors manage to still strike it rich. This is the oldest denialist gambit in the book. Just make baseless conspiracy accusations to avoid actually having to defend your claims w/ evidence. It's a cop-out & you know it. It's also disgraceful, irresponsible & libelous to make such serious accusations w/o evidence. You ignore the fact that your beloved chiropractors have a far larger financial stake in keeping the dream of chiropractic alive.
Funny how chiropractors keep customers coming back for more too. So do grocers & barbers & just about every1 else too. You're entirely biased. You don't understand how science works or how a placebo works. You're dishonest & completely willing to slander all who disagree w/ your beliefs. You can't say what would convince you that you're wrong because nothing could.
"The LESS sick people, the MUCH MORE LESS MONEY for pharmaceutical companies. There is just no profit."
hahaha... call it whatever u want my friend, but u cant deny that this is true. IT IS THE TRUTH.
And u didnt say anything abt it but just keep attacking on chiropractic.
Knowing that that statement is TRUE. Using simple logic, which i call "reasoning", and which you call "my reasoning", i can deduce that there is something else going on.
i can also deduce, the MORE SICK PEOPLE, THE MORE MONEY. it doesnt take a genius to infer that.
But again, u didnt mention anything about.
No, i have no evidence in my hands right now to show it to you. But guess what, I dont need it.
It's call THINKIN!
I know you (one of the dumbest persons in the world in my opinion) know that there HAVE TO BE something fishy abt the FDA, the PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, MONSANTO, the RX DRUGS, etc etc when there are so much freaking money on the table.
Forget abt chiropractic... even better... lets just say for a second chiropractic doesnt work (WHICH IT DOES)... what is the worst thing that could happen... mmm... people wasting money. Just buying something else that doesnt work. That's abt it.
But since this website it's call EXAMINER, instead of informing people about Chiropractic, why dont do some real research, and inform people for things that are really, but i mean REALLY worst. for example about the side effects of the EXITOTOXINS that the FDA approved knowingly of their REALLY SERIOUS side effects.
And please, forget abt chiropractic for one second, and give me a real man straight answer.
urworstnitemare (last 2 posts... sorry =)
"hahaha... call it whatever u want my friend, but u cant deny that this is true. IT IS THE TRUTH."
Nobody would deny that pharmaceutical companies make money off of their labor. As I've already pointed out, so does everyone else. The fact that someone makes money off of a need does not prove a conspiracy anymore than a grocer making money off of selling you food proves that they're only tricking you into thinking you need food to make money off you. It's just an absurd argument. And of course I also pointed out that chiropractors too make money off their "services," and their customers are encouraged to come back for more. So no, your logic or "reasoning" or "common sense" or whatever you want to call it is entirely fallacious. And the fact that you feel you can make such serious accusations w/o proof, and then call beliefs you have for no good reason "thinking" makes me think you have low standards for what constitutes as thinking.
You horribly misrepresent my position. I never claimed that pharmaceutical industries never try to mislead the public for profit. I'm saying the scientific process is designed w/ specific protocols that catch fraud (such as chiropractic) over time, whereas "Alternative" "Medicine" has no such protocols & thus no way to distinguish what works from what doesn't. I highly recommend this article, which explains far better than I can in this limited space: sciencebasedmedicine(dot)org/?p=535
You also naively think the worst outcome of selling bogus medicine is a slight loss of money. We're talking about people's health here. Many, many people have died or been seriously injured because they sought out "alternative" "treatments" instead of getting proper treatment. Many examples are chronicled at the website "What's The Harm." And that you again accuse ME of being the one who hasn't done the research is laughable. Make no mistake. Chiropractic has a body count.
And lastly, I've given you nothing but straight answers. It's you who have not answered any of my questions. You haven't supplied evidence for your position. And you haven't told me what would change your mind. You haven't refuted any of my criticisms of your position. All you've done is make unsubstantiated conspiracy claims, project your own failings onto me, and hurl insults. Again, I've been more than reasonable with you. I told you what is required to change my mind and my requirements were not remotely unreasonable. You have not met those requirements.
And I told you i have no intentions to change your mind, I'm just expressing my point of view, and expecting a decent answer that make me think and doubt of myself, which in all this time i havent had.
FINNALY, I WONT POST COMMENTS ANYMORE. BUT I THINK IT'S STUPID TO THINK THAT SOMEBODY WHO HAS RECEIVED PROPER TRAINING IN THE MEDICAL FIELD SAME AS AN MD OR DO(EXCEPT IN THE FIELDS OF SURGERY AND PHARMACOLOGY), AND HAVE THE SAME KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HOW THE BODY WORKS CANT HELP PEOPLE. THAT IS SIMPLY JUST A RETROGRADE WAY OF THINKING.
EVEN IF ADJUSTMENTS REALLY DONT WORK (WHICH THEY DO), CHIROPRACTORS DO WAY MORE THAN THAT, AND THEY CAN ASSES PATIENTS IN THE NEUROLOGICAL OR PHYSIOTHERAPEUTIC FIELD.
IN CASE YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT
AND THAT'S AN UNDENIABLE FACT.
"Many, many people have died or been seriously injured because they sought out "alternative" "treatments" instead of getting proper treatment. Many examples are chronicled at the website "What's The Harm." And that you again accuse ME of being the one who hasn't done the research is laughable. Make no mistake. Chiropractic has a body count."
I WAS TALKIN ABOUT CHIROPRACTIC ONLY, AND NO THE WHOLE "ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE"
HAHA, BUT AGAIN, DO U REALLY WANNA TALK ABOUT CHIROPRACTIC RISK. IT'S BASICALLY NONE W A PROPER TRAINED ONE. BUT EVEN IF IT THERE WERE. IT'S MINIMAL.
THAT'S A REASON WHY CHIROPRACTIC MALPRACTICE INSURANCE IS MUCH MORE CHEAPER THAT MD'S (WHICH ARE SKYROCKETING AS WE SPEAK)
CHIROPRACTIC IT'S VERY SAFE JUST TO LET YOU KNOW.
AND TO FINISH:
CHECK THIS OUT:
According to a 1995 U.S. iatrogenic report, "Over a million patients are injured in U.S. hospitals each year, and approximately 280,000 die annually as a result of these injuries.
ALSO CHECK THIS OUT:
"Since Americans spend so much money on health care, they should be getting a high quality of care, right? Unfortunately, that's not the case. Of the 783,936 annual deaths due to conventional medical mistakes, about 106,000 are from prescription drugs, according to Death by Medicine. That also is a conservative number. Some experts estimate it should be more like 200,000 because of underreported cases of adverse drug reactions."
YES, I CHOOSE CHIROPRACTIC!
In the latest vehicle accident statistics, I noticed that cars that were painted all over with flag-style stars and stripes accounted for only two accidents while white cars numbered in the tens of thousands.
From this we can determine that white cars are incredibly unsafe compared to cars painted to look like flags. Can't we?
urworstnitemare, so if I understand your argument (and I'm not sure I do because of how you presented it), you seem to be suggesting that chiropractors have proper medical training, same as real doctors, & therefore should know an effective treatment when they see it.
1. While some chiropractors may have real medical training, it's not a requirement.
2. You're making an argument from authority. Just because a guy is an MD doesn't mean they're they have the critical thinking skills necessary to put their own beliefs under the microscope.
3. You're cherry-picking your experts. What of all the MDs who reject chiropractic?
Ultimately, it all comes down to the evidence. And again, these chiropractic claims have not been sufficiently proven. But again, if you think they have & that it's an "undeniable fact", then point me to a reputable, properly controlled study that proves its efficacy.
cont'd
cont'd
Okay, next you supply quotes w/o even citing your source, which further illustrates how you'll happily cling to any data that agrees w/ you & have no interest at all in what is true. Your source seems to be Mike Adams' Natural News site, which is not even close to a reputable source. In fact, it's a well known conspiracy propaganda site. And ironically, after your big tirade about how making money proves an evil conspiracy, the folks at Natural News collect quite a bit. Real research requires actually investigating the possibility that you might be wrong. This is apparently a concept that is completely foreign to you.
In addition to the article I already posted the URL to in a previous comment, I recommend The Baloney Detection Kit:
youtube com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU
Andy,
Well said. It's a great example of the Biased Sample, which is I think the essential fallacy being made by urworstnitemare.
When I hear this fallacy being made, I often like to point out that 150 people die each year from falling coconuts, meaning coconuts kill more than sharks.
Drawing a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is biased or prejudiced in some manner allows one to make whatever conclusion they want. One could downplay the 6 million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust by pointing at that over the course of 6000 years, far more Jews have died from the flu.
I said that i wasnt gonna post anymore....
but OMG... cant believe this people. trying to give the wrong information to the public... making them believe that chiropractic is not safe.
and yes, that source is not "reliable", but if u use YOur head, I was just trying to make a undeniable point.
and I thought you people at least had the balls, and decency to recognize when u cant win an argument.
you are DEFENDING the INDEFENSIBLE!!!
I WANT YOU TO PROVE ME THAT CONVENTIONAL MEDICINE IS SAFER OR AS SAFE, or ALMOST AS SAFE AS CHIROPRACTIC.
There is no way in hell you can do that.
I DARE YOU.
I want your sources, quoted.
Second,
BRO!, u r thinking to much!
You can't cover the sun with one finger. I just stated that chiropractors do more, they can do more than that in their specialty, which is NEUROLOGICAL, and also musculosketal.
That's their field, and that's what they know.
SIMPLE!
Dont make it too complicated.
If u dont believe in adjustments, then DONT GET ADJUSTED!, but still u can go to chiropractors who can take care of u wo adjustment.
I have lived it.
MD's and chiropractors have proper trainning (FACT THAT U CANT DENY).
You dont have to be a genious to be a good MD or DC. You just need to love study and love what you do. That is what makes a good doctor.
and yes, lot's of chiropractors do nothing more, only adjusting, which is sad. Cause they know way more than, and dont practice it, and makes people think that's what
cont'
... that's the only thing they know what to do.
But also, there are tons of lame ahss MD's who dont give a crap about their patients, dont do real history or evaluations, and just give unnecesary prescriptions.
and my dear friend, I dont need to quote you anything about this...
it's call LIFE EXPERIENCE.
Which you should get one. TURN OFF YOU COMPUTER. Open your door...
and say WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!
"and yes, that source is not "reliable", but if u use YOur head, I was just trying to make a undeniable point."
If the "undeniable point" you were making was that quoting bad sources illustrates an inability or unwillingness to do proper research, then your point is well taken.
"I WANT YOU TO PROVE ME THAT CONVENTIONAL MEDICINE IS SAFER OR AS SAFE, or ALMOST AS SAFE AS CHIROPRACTIC."
You're shifting the burden of proof. The amount of literature showing the evidence for the efficacy of medical treatments is vast. This is like a Holocaust Denier insisting the burden of proof still lies w/ the historians who believe the Holocaust happened. It's absurd. There's mountains of evidence. Pick up any reputable medical journal.
"There is no way in hell you can do that."
I've already explained how you CAN DO THAT, by simple double blind testing, same as everything else.
Here's an article on the history of chiropractic to start:
sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=537
"they can do more than that in their specialty, which is NEUROLOGICAL, and also musculosketal."
As for the neurological, I again point you to the article written by neurologist Steven Novella that I just posted the URL to in my previous comment. That is part 1 of his chiropractic criticism. At the end of the article, he promises to address the musculosketal claims next week.
"MD's and chiropractors have proper trainning (FACT THAT U CANT DENY)."
MDs have proper training. I deny that chiropractors do.
"and my dear friend, I dont need to quote you anything about this...
it's call LIFE EXPERIENCE."
Your "life experience" is scientifically worthless...which is why real science doesn't base its conclusions off of anecdotal evidence alone. The human mind is prone to see patterns even when none exist. The human mind is flawed & prone to error. That's why we use the scientific method to distinguish what works from what only appears to work.
First, my dear friend "the undeniable point" was that chiropractic is MUCH MORE SAFER than conventional medicine, specially treating LBP.
But of course, you dont believe that. And dont ask me to prove u things, since u r "the examiner" and you are the one that wants to prove chiropractic wrong.
Second thanks for the link, it was awesome. i spent my whole afternoon reading and looking around. Specially about the comments, not so much abt the article.
When research is done by chiropractic journals, then is bias. When research is done, and prove that chiropractic works, you guys say that the setup wasn't adequate or it's basically not enough to get conclusions. There is always something that doesnt make you guys happy.
You guys really look at few journals, which are the main ones, or the more recognized ones, and yes that's true. But doesnt make the other ones wrongs. Also, as I said before,...
...there is a big interest in the Pharmaceuticals for people to be sick, and it's known that they have paid to peer reviewers to approve drugs, and who knows what other stuffs. So to think that they dont want chiropractic to be proven since it's a preventive approach, at least make sense to me. Maybe I'm just crazy. As they say in my country "even monkeys dance for money", which means, when there is so, but SO much money involved, who know what really it's going on.
But again, i cant prove this right, but neither you can prove it wrong.
But again, if chiropractic is so, but so wrong as you guys say, then it will dissapear, cause people will realize that it really doesnt work, and "real doctors" will have more patients, and pharmaceutical will make so much more money.
Then I dont understand the concern. Cause safety is not the issue, so dont lie to yourself. Mmmmm... People spending money in things that dont work or need...
haha
this is america...
nothing new.
It's been more than 100 years since CHIROPRACTIC was discovered, 100 years where medicine has developed immensely, however...
...chiropractic is in its best moment ever, getting acceptance everyday more and more, thru the whole world... why would that be? (dont worry guys, that was a retorical question)
So long my dear friend, thankz for giving urself time to reply to my coments.
I just hope u r not gonna quote me anymore... hehe.
farewell!
Where can I read the studies showing the efficacy chiropractic's efficacy in treating LBP?
"and you are the one that wants to prove chiropractic wrong."
On the contrary, all I want is the conclusions of the best science available. It's that science in a free marketplace of ideas that appears in peer-reviewed scientific journals & is what's practiced by professional scientists. That's what should be used to treat patients. What chiropractic offers is not a scientific explanation; it's just a claim that we think it works but can't prove it, so we'll just run w/ it anyway.
If you're reasonable, interested in how the world works & in what is true altogether, you are open to further conversation, to more argument & more evidence. If you're not open-minded & genuinely interested in finding out what's true, you have rendered yourself immune to influence from the world. And that dogmatism is simply a conversation-stopper.
cont'd
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