Early in the morning of January 3rd, in front of the main entrance of the newest Safeway in the newest shopping center in Marin County, there was a hit. A gangland hit. Two men sitting in a car were shot to pieces in the Novato Hamilton Safeway parking lot. The victims are hanging by a thread, the police think it is gang related.
Novato, California is my town. This is my Safeway, two miles from my home.
With a population of 50,000 and located in Marin County, twenty-five miles north of the big red bridge and the People’s Republic of San Francisco, Novato is the kind of quiet, affluent community families love to live in. The public schools aren’t too bad, which in California is pretty good. We’re close enough to the city that if you want to go there you can. We’re far enough away that, unless you insist on watching the local news, you don’t see the detritus and nuttiness of San Francisco.
Now, Novato isn’t Mayberry, but we don’t expect it to be Los Angeles, either.
Five illegal alien gang members were arrested about two months ago on a residential street with two shotguns, a machete, a baseball bat and drugs.
We’ve had other shootings recently, all gang related. Drive-by shootings. We had a police officer assaulted as part of a gang initiation. When confronted, the officer showed the “youth” his badge, and was assaulted anyway. You must have really wanted to join that gang. And you made it, didn't you?
It’s kinda like living in the violent era of the Mafia gangs before Lucky Luciano wised them up to not doing violence where civilians might get caught in the crossfire.
Two years ago KRON reported that the Marin County Grand Jury ID'd a lot of our local gangs as being illegal alien gangs. We've got Norteños, Sureños, 13th Street, 18th Street, and our own homegrown punks.
Across the country gang violence continues to increase and local governments continue to be impotent in response. Hell, local governments are nearly as responsible as the federal government is for the increase of gangs and gang violence over the past 20 years.
Most of it is perpetrated by illegal alien gang members, or anchor baby gang members, or is drug related which is, of course, directly related to illegal alien drug gangs and the wide open border that the federal government willfully refuses to control.
In town after town in California in the 1990s citizens were beseeching city councils to do something about the increase in illegal aliens and illegal alien crime. The lame excuse they received from worthless elected officials was that it was “the federal government’s problem.”
“No,” we would respond, as if we were actually talking to representatives who were competent, at least honest. “It is a federal responsibility, but it is our problem.” It was to little or no avail.
The Chamber of Commerce supports unrestrained legal and illegal immigration because of the cheap labor and new customers it provides. The aging baby boomer consumers must be replaced, and who better to replace us with than people who come with nothing and who want everything. Ergo, illegal aliens.
And when it comes to the Chamber, most governments are obsequious. We have the best government money can buy. The problem is we never stop paying for it.
Novato was once rural, then suburban. Now it is increasingly urban in the problems it has, and that includes illegal alien gang problems.
We don’t know all the facts of this attempted multiple murder, yet. And when we do find out that is was mostly illegal aliens involved, the usual suspects will cry out that we can’t paint all “immigrants” with the same brush, the usual twaddle.
And when we bring it up at the city council meeting next week, some or all of the council will go out of their way to admonish everyone not to engage in "racial profiling." I really feel confident making these predictions.
A group of us are trying to get Novato to adopt E-Verify for all the reasons you know. They won’t. They have broken the law to avoid adopting E-Verify. The Chamber of Commerce opposes E-Verify.
Some of us have seen this coming and have asked the local government to do something about it and they have proven to be useless.
But, we may yet prevail. We may see some law enforcement designed to discourage illegal aliens from coming to Novato, or at least from coming to commit their crimes in Novato. But, a price will have to be paid before that happens. And the payment will be in blood. It will be paid with innocent victims' blood.
Have you noticed that when governments finally do act to address a really serious problem it is usually only after the body count has become noticeable?
Start counting.
“Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.” -- Clemenza, "The Godfather"
Rick Oltman is the founder of The Immigration Tea Party
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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. -- Winston Churchill
Comments
I told you so. I told you so. I told you so. Is it really going to take your child or your grand child being raped or murdered before YOU get off of your politically correct thumbs and return to the Rule of Law? Political power is supposed to originate at the grass roots level and be directed upward. In 2011, political correctness dictates from above, and is shoved down our throats from above. Take Back Government. Whether it is blocking E-Verify or imposing "affordable housing", dictating power from above is a perversion of democracy. Welcome to Third World California, where illegals and criminals have all the power and citizens have none.
Political correctness BS has done nothing but work against all good citizens, regardless of race. It is a shield being used by those who want everything for nothing, the lazies, the bums, the uneducated minorities, the foreign patriots who place their loyalty in another country where they just could not make it, where they were persecuted, stripped of civil rights, yet they come here demanding everything their own way, offering little or nothing to a country that has good to them in many ways.
Take a look at Arizona, now can you blame the State for going at it alone against the illegal alien and drug smugglers? The Federal gov't has helped NONE, only empty promises and lies, lies, more lies, and did I mention lies?
My apologies for the grammar mistakes on my previous comments. Not spell checked, "couldn't think of anyone to place the blame on!".
This is an example of a city - that stopped an E Verify ordinance - and now gang violence is growing with associated killings - and the city pretends illegal aliens are a federal issue. I agree - this horrific killing will probably reveal that illegal aliens were most likely involved. When the citizens take this story and call for justice, the city MUST take action. Starting with allowing the E verify vote to go forward, would be one first step.
What is shocking to me is that these crimes are now being committed in affluent areas of the country. It seems that Americans are not safe no matter where they live as long as illegal aliens are allowed to roam freely throughout our country. Unfortunately, it will get worse as the economic situation in America degrades.
Yes, the federal government failed America on illegal immigration, but many states and municipalities helped make the mess. Google and see how many places in America offer "sanctuary" to illegal aliens. This is illegal and a not so subtle form of anarchy by local governments. There is no effective screening method for straining out the thugs. All Americans need to follow the current immigration law. The law isn't broken, illegal aliens are breaking the law. Check out the free M3 Report on www.nafbpo.org and read about the carnage yet to come your way.
Check the papers of every gang member in town and we could deport about half of them.
I am sorry to see what has become of this country. Our spineless politicians have done this, and they are the ones to blame for this. No one is held accountable and the U.S./Mexican Border is as porous as it ever was, only more violent. Get ready folks its going to get much much worse!
It's sad and funny to read stories like this and then read the bylines of the writers. All of you, Mr. Oltman and your supporters, are immigrants-- just as my ancestors were. ("Oltman" sounds pretty German to me.) If Native Americans had been as united in purpose as some anti-immigration advocates seem to be trying to be these days, none of you would be here. YOU would still be the suffering poor of the societies from whence your ancestors came. So let's keep that in mind...
Secondly, where are the facts in this article? There seem to be few of them here and there, but a heck of a lot of supposition. Did no one read, watch or listen to the reports about the event? One white guy and one Hispanic guy were shot in a car by a person or persons who appear to be associated with a woman with the last name "Coyle". I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she is not Hispanic and not an "illegal alien gang member".
Criminals should not be exculpated for their actions based upon their citizenship status, their economic status, race, ethnicity, gender, or creed. Nor should we charge people with crimes before there is some evidence on which to base that charge. Isn't that one of the tenets of the AMERICAN legal system?
Nope, not an immigrant. A native born American. My great grandparents were legal immigrants from Europe. That’s just sort of a little distinction we like to make between those who honor America enough by following our laws, and those who sneak into our country illegally, work here illegally and some of whom commit other more heinous crimes.
I will agree that if there had been more Indians, had they been more united, better led and had more technology and military tactics that at least equaled the Europeans they would have stood a fighting chance. But…they didn’t.
We should learn from the Indians and stop illegal aliens at the border.
As for facts, I suggest that you are racially profiling to deny the possibility that this was an illegal alien gang because of a report of “one white guy” and a woman with a non Hispanic name. Shame on you.
And if you missed it in the original piece, here it is again.
"We don’t know all the facts of this attempted multiple murder, yet. And when we do find out that is was mostly illegal aliens involved, the usual suspects will cry out that we can’t paint all “immigrants” with the same brush, the usual twaddle."
And, so far your twaddle has failed to impress.
Spiritof76, you make our point for us when you say, "If Native Americans had been as united in purpose as some anti-immigration advocates seem to be trying to be these days, none of you would be here."
We choose to learn from the mistakes of the Native Americans. They chose to aid and abet the INVADERS. They helped them survive here and then lost their land to them for their kindness. We won't be making that mistake with these invaders.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm an American of Mexican descent who is calling these people invaders. Immigrants don't enter a country illegally, march down their streets waving the flag of their country and demand that they be allowed to stay. Those are the actions of INVADERS and the must be stopped.
Spiritof76 is probably from Marin County because this person is not as intelligent as they pretend to be. Not that all people from Marin County are like this person...snicker.
I can guarantee you this is gangland hit, the gang is most likely a Hispanic gang such as Surenos, or Nortenos. The female is associated, she is probably second generation Hispanic, and is a valuable commodity to these punks. By looking at the graffiti on the walls I can tell you right now these two gangs are at war, and it will get worse.
This is what I know, and what I do for a living. Spiritof76 you can argue with me all you want and I will eat you for lunch. Get a clue.
My family lives near and shops at the Safeway where the shooting took place. We shop there. I don’t want my family members caught in some gang shooting crossfire, or any other violence. And obviously I don't want crime to get worse in Novato… or anywhere else. But the problem doesn't get better by complaining or pointing fingers. It gets better by looking for the real causes--not supposed ones based upon ignorance, fear, racism, classism, and xenophobia. Problems are solved by educating ourselves and looking for solutions. Sure, sometimes the solutions are found at the ballot box, sometimes through stronger or stricter laws, or even raising some hell. But we need to start with facts.
Often the causes of common crime (violent or otherwise) are rooted in economics and education issues, whether locally or abroad. (Ever hear of Afghanistan? Why did the Taliban & Al Qaeda take root there? Post-war instability led to a situation where it was difficult for a government that respected rights and promoted economic progress to exist.) Let's focus on improving the economic situation for ourselves and others (we're interdependent--like it or not), and educating ourselves and each other, so that we can all live prosperously, peacefully, and united.
Quit reading the sociology and psychology publications. You have no idea what you are talking about. This has nothing to do with the Taliban or Al Qaeda and not getting enough hugs as a child. These people will kill you if you look at them wrong. They don't care about you or your family. I wanted to correct myself. The shooter is probably from the 18th Street gang because the victim was from the Nortes and at some point he or the gang was disrespected. This is most likely the cause. They have no fear of going to prison, because it is actually a medal of honor in their status with the gang and to gain "street cred" This is the rule of law on the street, and now it is in your town. No psychobable journal or therapist is going to fix this. You have real trouble my friend.
This story by Mr. Oltman is little more than fear-mongering, based on few facts and a lot of supposition and opinion. Editorial or not, it's this kind of nonsense that has ruined journalism in recent years. Oltman hijacked a tragedy to promote his own divisive political agenda.
Instead of playing the blame game, let's stick to one of our founding dicta as a nation: "E pluribus unum." We never won any battles by being divided, and, as the world continues to change and new challenges emerge, we have plenty of worthy "battles" to fight.
Enforcing the law and preventing illegal immigration is only a DIVISIVE ISSUE to those who support illegal immigration.
To most Americans, it is just common sense.
2/3 to 3/4 of Americans oppose amnesty, support enforcement and want an Arizona SB1070 type law in their state.
It is illegal alien gang violence, like the shooting at the Hamilton Safeway, that convinces more Americans every day to support the law.
Where are the police in all this? They can ticket little old ladies, run bait car and prostitution stings and show up for protests to look intimidating, but seemingly do not have the fortitude to rid the streets of gangs? Allowing the scourge to rule their towns, intimidate honorable citizens and ply their poisons to our children!!!
Perhaps they are in cahoots with the gangstas....or maybe they aren't worth the badges or oaths they have taken?
Not unlike their higher-ups, I suppose, but "just following orders" doesn't apply when people are being murdered, children molested and/or raped and laws are unobeyed in plain sight!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!
Rick, your style of informing people of the issues is exemplary. So clear and well defined. Your last sentence about body count applies to all levels of government,especially the Feds.
I ask one question; It is obvious that you folks over in Novato are aware that local government is not responsibly addressing a serious breach of law. My question is, why don't you folks run for public office and boot these so called community leaders who are feeding at the public trough while playing a politically correct game? The lack of action to address this type of violence on the part of the leaders in your community is reprehensible at best - get out there and run for office - eject the bums who embolden criminals who commit this type of disgusting act - illegal alien or Citizen! It's up to you. Talking won't do it, but action will. Vote the bums out and take control of your community. There is no viable alternative. You've seen how effete our politicians have become.
Mr. Oltman, you are an immigrant. All of us in the US are immigrants (scientists would even argue that Native Americans are). Native-born or not, your people are not from here. They came here before strict immigration laws were passed in the 1920s--which may have even kept them out. And unless you're Miwok in Marin County, you are probably descended from people who took land that did not belong to them.
If you opened a history book, you'd also realize that the land you live on used to be a part of the Spanish empire (they set up some missions--you may have noticed), then an independent Mexico. It was referred to as Alta California by the Mexicans; hence the name of the state we live in. Some would even say that Mexicans are following the advice of the anti-immigration lot and actually “going back to where they came from”: California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, Texas/Tejas…
Nope. Not an immigrant. I am a native born American citizen.
My people for the past few generations are from here.
I am well aware of the history of the American southwest. And it is irrelevant.
We have it now. Our system has built, over the years, a system that has provided more freedom and more prosperity for more people than any of the other groups who controlled it.
Illegal aliens should not be allowed to remain in America. The borders should be secured and our employment laws enforced to the benefit of American citizens...
Even those American citizens who don't have a clue.
Let me be clear that I'm not writing here to impress anyone--least of all you, Mr. Oltman. Your feeble attempt to belittle my responses to your "article" don't change the fact that your work is based upon supposition, opinion, and very few facts (poor journalism)--which you attempt to string together in some kind of effort to indict what you see as inept public officials. The ranting without facts may work on Fox News, but not with an informed, objective, non-partisan reading audience. Your work is little more than thinly veiled racism, bound up with inept frustration, and peddled with fear.
When I stated that "Coyle" didn't seem to be the name of one of these "illegal aliens" you refer to throughout your article, I was implying something based on a fact that even you probably know: that most illegal immigration comes from Latin America. So my comment was no racist insinuation: it was based on fact. This, I know, is unrecognizable to you because you are involved in the politics of emotion, not logic, and that emotion is primarily fear. You're scared even to admit that it's people of color that you fear. You're scared of change. You're scared of people who have different opinions than your own, so you use the Internet as your pulpit. It's sad.
This was a gang hit.
You can prattle on with all the new age psychobabble you want. Your nonsense isn't going to solve the problem.
Is that all you liberal idiots can respond with is "Fox News" You heard it on "Fox News" You listen to "Fox News". What does that have to do with the fact that this country has been under invasion from Mexico and Latin America for a long long time.
I don't know where you get your information, but whatever you listen to has taught you to stick your big fat head in the sand far too long. Wake up goof!
I do applaud you for "speaking" out, though, because it seems that we do live in a world of people who are too busy, complacent, lazy, or disengaged to confront anything--even if it's the wrong thing. I just wish, Mr. Oltman, that your writing was based more on facts than fear. We need action, but action based on educated facts—not supposition. Clarence De Barrows has the right idea.
Mr. Oltman’s article strayed from the real issue: crime. His article attempts to steer us towards his pet subject: anti-immigration. The whole basis of the article was a tragic and shocking shooting in an otherwise relatively peaceful community. That’s the real issue here; not assuming that the crime was perpetrated by “illegal aliens”. This is not an immigration issue. This is an issue about crime, enforcement, safety, and the rule of law.
Anti-ILLEGAL immigration.
But then you don't recognize the difference, do you?
And there in lies the problem.
I agree with the sentiment that illegal actions must be stopped. We are a country of laws, and must remain so. The federal government must be held accountable, as must state and local officials, for doing what needs to be done to ensure safety in our communities. However, we're not going to solve any problems through xenophobia, hatred (veiled or otherwise), blaming, or even building walls (literal or figurative). Again, the keys to improving our situation are through education and economic development. When the de-stabilization of foreign economies stops, and when legitimate governments are established and maintained outside of our borders where the rule of law (not of the rich, not of drug lords, not of the gun) promotes stability and prosperity, we will see less and less problems with illegal immigration, terrorism, human rights abuses, et cetera.
Immigration, after all, has always seemed to be a compliment of sorts: "I want to live in America. Life is better there." Let’s help build a better world where, like FDR said, people can live anywhere on the planet free of fear, free of want, free to express themselves and worship as they wish.
Please share with us your reasoning about how expecting our immigration laws and employment laws to be enforced is xenophobic? Or hatred?
How does education keep illegal aliens out of our country?
And before you answer ponder this. There are over 6 billion people on the planet who have it WORSE THAN MEXICANS do. How is education going to reduce the pressure from these people who want to flee the poverty, violence and corruption of their country?
Be specific.
Update from the Novato Advance
http://marinscope.com/articles/2011/01/05/novato_advance/news/doc4d24d81...
**Spiritof76** You don't even have a clue as to what you are saying. You are either a politician, illegal alien or were never very educated.
"Keys to improving our situation are through education and economic development"? Been there done that for too long, hint,hint, it doesn't work. The "Tide" has turned Spirit, and along with it the "common sense" of the American people are also. Please do yourself and all a favor and save the African continent. The are crying for you.
Marin County prosecutors say Alessandra Coyle, 22, of Novato is a member of the Sureño gang...
http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_17019273
Mr. Oltman: Psychobabble? Really? Is this your retort to an argument? HILARIOUS... and rather sophisticated. I'm not going to waste too much more of my time with this argument because it's not going to get anywhere, but in the hope that maybe, just maybe, I'll break through to you with some rationalism, I'll say a few more things:
I know the difference between legal and illegal immigration, but what you seem to be implying suggests that it doesn't matter whether it's legal or not if the immigrants are Hispanic. If you're not a racist or a classist, you should work harder to make your argument clearer, because it comes across that way. I was referring to your insinuations when I wrote of hatred and xenophobia--not government policies or laws. For example, you keep dropping hints about Mexicans (which, for you, may also include Mexican Americans or other people of Latin American descent) throughout your article, but you insist you’re just against “illegal aliens”.
(CONTINUING, to Mr. Oltman)
There are just so many holes in your article! You jump all over the place. And I still come back to one of my points: BAD JOURNALISM! The public does not become informed by baseless assumptions, suppositions, guesses, and uneducated opinions. Not all illegal immigrants are gang members; not all gang members are illegal immigrants. While statistically most illegal immigration comes from Latin America, most violent crimes in the US are committed by white people. They must all be illegal aliens, right? And while the Marin Independent Journal reports country prosecutors have said that Coyle is affiliated with the Sureño gang, the gang is not an “illegal alien gang”.
Furthermore, isn't your article supposed to be about the shooting? Again, that's what the issue is! But you feebly attempt and fail to connect your pet issue of anti-"ILLEGAL" immigration (I still think you'd object to any Mexican immigrating in any form) to the shooting incident. Stick to the issue at hand! …Or at least wait until illegal immigrants are arrested for violent crimes in Novato before stumbling (so far) inaccurately toward that conclusion. (If that proves to be the case, you can write under the nome de plume Nostradamus Oltman, but your conclusions are still specious at best.)
(...To Oltman)
And I'm really surprised that you're unable to follow the path from education to stability but basically it's this: When people are better educated, they typically make better choices, right? They have more information, they "know better", etc. Education in what we used to call "Third World" countries is deplorable, right? It's almost non-existent in most cases throughout the world. It's even a problem in many areas within our own borders. My point is that if people are better educated they will demand a better life--including government and laws--and will have better employment options because of their education. As a result, if the country is more stable and the people have better options than working for a drug cartel or illegally immigrating to the US, for example, instances of those types of things should drop. (This is where, if I was writing an article, I'd provide quotes, statistics, and examples.) We've seen all kinds of improvements in our own country because of education: We have the highest GDP of any nation on Earth! Why can’t or won’t this work in other places? It has and it will.
Certainly education and economic opportunities aren't the only ways to improve our country or our world, but they’re significant components of that positive change.
ttundra: You make it so easy to mock you. I'll try to stick to my points, but it's going to be really tough not to jab you here and there.
I will say that you're wrong on all accounts about your accusations, but thanks for your feeble attempt at a contribution to the conversation. And what's with the Africa comment? Not sure how that fit into the discussion at all, except that it gave me a little window into how you think (or don't?).
to ttundra:
More importantly, though, I'll paint a picture for you by using small words and short sentences to make my point about education's importance in resolving societal ills: The USA started off as a group of colonies. There was a high literacy rate among these colonists. Most learned to read so that they could read the Bible. Later, ability to read this helped them share ideas about good government, and why they needed to be an independent nation. (Maybe you're familiar with this since you seemed to reference Thomas Paine in your post...or maybe not.) Later, public education was mandated, making better, more-informed workers--which continued the nation's progress through the Industrial Revolution. Fast-forward to after World War II when a law nicknamed the GI Bill was passed that helped veterans go back to school to increase their knowledge and improve their economic opportunities. This led to the growth of what we refer to as the modern middle class. This emphasis on education helped to decrease poverty, increase stability, and continue America's progress as a nation, and to become the most powerful, prosperous country on the planet. (When America has had difficulties, they are often connected to a lack of rights--including education and access to economic opportunities.)
Open your door, ttundra. Swim across your moat and see that there are a lot of good people in the world, and a lot of good things going on. I know you're scared, but try to be brave! As you look around, recognize that there are a lot of problems in the world, too, but most of them come from ignorance (lack of education, or a refusal to embrace knowledge), intolerance, and small-mindedness. Poverty often leads to serious problems, too. Fight poverty through economic development and combat ignorance, intolerance, and small-mindedness through education and you stop a lot of other problems. As the saying goes, "Nothing stops a bullet like a job."
How could education and economic opportunity NOT help defeat problems here in the US or anywhere in the world? This kind of thinking is what helped the people/government of Colombia to start rebuilding and improving their nation after we helped take out Escobar.
last to ttundra:
It will not happen overnight, but education and economic development are integral parts to the solution of problems in any community, whether it's Oakland or Sana, Novato or Mogadishu, Los Angeles or Kandahar, San Diego or Culiacan. Take a look at the Special Forces (sometimes the "hammer" is a part of the solution to some of the world's problems, too, but that's a different story): They're not just soldiers, they're teachers, as well (it's even in the SF Creed)! There's a reason for that.
Maybe now we can get back to what Clarence De Barrows said about taking action. Vote, be heard, address the issue!: CRIME! Stop being scared of brown and black people; stop being scared of poor people. Do what is suggested in that Book some of you may read parts of on Sundays and follow the example of the people in it: try to help those in your community in whatever way you can. Be a part of the solution through civic action, charity, or any other positive, progressive movement that seeks to improve our human condition. Whatever you do, quit being a bunch of effete, bigoted cry-babies.
I don't know why you even bother to answer this Spiritof76 person. He/she is so blinded by sanctimony and anti-Americanism that it is a waste of time.
Can't you block, him/her?
No, no, no, no, no. We want her to keep posting. No one can highlight these thought processes for what they are better than they can in their own words.
Illegal immigration has been allowed in large amounts for about 20 years now. Not one thing in California is better as a result of the influx.
Crime
Education
Healthcare
Employment
Environment
Are all negatively impacted by massive legal and illegal immigration.
The American people did not vote for this kind of future.
Poll after poll and every election where immigration enforcement is on the ballot proves that Americans want our immigration laws enforced.
When the laws are not enforced crime increases.
Fewer illegal aliens, fewer illegal alien criminals.
ProAmerica: You're right. It *IS* a waste of time to try to converse with people who won't listen to reason or refuse to have a rational discourse. Sanctimony is a great word, but I think it can be applied elsewhere. There's nothing phony about my beliefs. You have yours, and I have mine. Because we do live in such a great country, we're allowed to freely share our opinions. I know this is hard for some people to accept.
One thing you're WAY off-base with is your comment that my posts are anti-American. Where in any of my posts is there anything that's anti-American? NOWHERE. What evidence do you have? I'm simply posting facts. If anything, I've lauded our country for its greatness. It's not without its imperfections surely, but I think we are the model for the rest of the world. We are that light of the world, that "city upon a hill" watched by the rest of the world. That's why we need to be wise about what we do and how we do it.
Mr. Oltman:
Thanks for encouraging me to continue posting, but I'm just going in circles with you guys now, so I'm going to wind things down. I've made my points, they've been clear and supported, but some people just have a hard time accepting facts when they don't align with their own opinions. Que sera...
I will say that I agree with you on a couple of things. We, American citizens and taxpayers, should not have to pay for those who aren't contributing their fair share to society. Illegal immigrants do contribute to society with their labor and through things like sales tax on goods purchased, and even income taxes in some cases, but do not contribute all they could or should in terms of taxes for services rendered. Illegal immigration does impact tax-supported services like health care, education, et cetera, as you say. We can't be expected to shoulder the burden. Maybe that's why Ronald Reagan granted millions of illegal aliens amnesty in the 1980s--to make them taxpaying citizens!
(Continued, to Oltman...)
BUT until we reconcile our policies about immigration and start being consistent about what we say versus what we do as a country, it will remain a problem. Big business needs to stop recruiting illegal immigrants as cheap labor, and we, consumers, have to expect to pay more for goods that are produced by illegal immigrant workforce. (I doubt the average American will be lining up to work in the produce fields for the wages those guys earn.)
I still maintain that if Mexico and other nations prioritize education and economic development--we'll have less problems with illegal immigration, and they'll have a a better country for it.
Regardless of all of that, the shooting in Novato STILL has NOTHING to do with illegal immigration!
I want to thank you for sharing. Don't hesitate to post your ideas.
I do want to correct one major error you have made;
The gang hit in Novato has everything to do with illegal immigration. I realize it takes a few steps to get there, but it does
Mr. Oltman,
I think this will be my last post, but I vehemently disagree that the Novato shooting has to do with illegal immigration. Where I think you're going is that it involved or may have involved ties to gangs--probably Hispanic gangs (the MC prosecutors said Coyle is tied to the Sureno gang). But there is no evidence that the perpetrators were illegal immigrants. Sure, there are probably some gang members that are illegal aliens. They should be deported. But the insinuation seems to be that all Mexicans are illegal aliens (or "anchor babies"). That's simply inaccurate. There are plenty of Mexican Americans/Chicanos who have been in this country for generations--some probably longer than some
Euro-Americans. Clearly, not all Mexican Americans are gang members/criminals. (As I said before, national crime statistics show that the racial/ethnic group with the most crimes committed are whites/Euro-Americans.)
Crime needs to be stopped. There are many ways to do this, both long-term (education, economic development) and short-term (laws, enforcement). If we consistently put the target on problems there just might be some significant and positive changes, locally, nationally, and internationally.
You can fall back on "insinuation" or "what you seem to be saying" or anything else.
I say what I say.
I don't insinuate, and you shouldn't try to interpret.
Anyone who knows the history of these gangs would not deny the illegal alien connection.
I don't care how long anyone has been anywhere, it makes not one bit of difference.
Americans have built the greatest country on the planet, and some don't seem to understand or care to appreciate that fact.
The law should be enforced, all laws including immigration laws and employment laws, regardless of how long anyone says they have been here. Period.
The issue is crime. Spirit has good reasoning and a very important point. Education is the standard along with upbringing and morals that make each of us who we are today. I have seen poverty first hand overseas. Also overseas I have seen violence which in a lot of ways we can blame lack of education. I do not involve myself in an argument however I bring the case that some of spirits points were waved off assuming they were illegal or marin county resident or liberal. It seemed to be taken as offense as maybe in some cases it was. However I fought wars and lost friends for Americans the likes of all of you. Someone sarcastically said "God Bless America!" I appreciate your humor. Appreciate your freedom that you are given in this country from people like me, if not me then for the ones that it cost the lives of my fellow soldiers, airmen, seamen and marines.
Thanks, Mil Veteran. My hat literally goes off to you and others who have served our great country and made sacrifices for it. I'm glad you got what I am saying. We have so much more than others have in the rest of the world--which is what has drawn, and continues to draw, people here from all over the world. I am thankful for people like you who have defended the rest of us so that we can argue and bicker inanely and not worry about censorship, Secret Police, the "opposition party", death squads and the like...
I wish we could focus on the mission here, which is always to stop the "bad guys"--whether it's the Taliban, 18th Street gang, white supremacists, or just narrow-mindedness. But as you very well know, there are many ways to defeat our enemies. To think otherwise, I guess, is pretty myopic.
Thanks for your service, wisdom, and sincerity.
I missed responding to Mr. Montalbano. Much of what you say is true about gang members. I know because I work with them (against them) every day. I don't get my knowledge or understanding of gangs and their behavior from a sociology book or from pop psychology--or from reading blogs or newspaper articles. But thanks for taking a shot with a baseless assumption.
Crime is the issue. Criminals need to be punished. We all agree on that. We don't need to sympathize for gang members. No where in my posts did I say that. Save the hyperbole.
What I've said over and over is that to solve any problem, we need to target the it, focus on solutions, and take action--instead of just blaming and complaining. It's pretty cute to snicker and make assumptions and take little jabs at each other, but it solves nothing.
I could give you guys all a lesson on the origins of these gangs that you're talking about because I have dealt with them in one way or another for over 20 years. You have to know your enemy, and what you guys are misunderstanding--or don't want to acknowledge--is that with most of these gangs are not comprised of illegal aliens. Some, yes; but most Hispanic gang members are Chicanos or other "hyphenated Americans". They are CITIZENS! So...the issue once again is CRIME, not--at least in this case--immigration status. So go ahead and deport every "illegal alien". You'll still have crime, you'll still have gangs.
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