Caveat Emptor
The following reports are unconfirmed 2nd or 3rd hand accounts, but come from three different sources that have all been credible in the past.
I was told twice today that Border Patrol Agent Brian A. Terry, who was killed on December 14th, was armed with “bean-bag rounds.”
"Bean bag rounds" are used when a person is a danger to himself or others, but is not a direct threat in such a manner that lethal force would be appropriate. The round is intended to disable or stun the person without killing them. 50% of cases are when the assailant has a bladed weapon.
Another source related to me that Terry “had a 12 gauge with rubber bullets.” That is, a 12 gauge shotgun with rubber bullets, as opposed to OO buckshot, for example.
Either way, if correct, Agent Terry was armed with a “non-lethal” weapon in an area so dangerous that only the elite agents of BORTAC were allowed to patrol. What gives? Did he have his M-4 rifle with him as well? Don’t know. Terry was a Marine, so of course he joined BORTAC. One person said to me this morning, "They armed a warrior with a water pistol."
Recently, agents in the area west of Rio Rico spotted the thugs who were suspected of ripping off the drug mules and of multiple rapes. 2 or 3 times agents radioed in that they could “take these guys.” But, they were told by their supervisors multiple times to disengage, “We want to take them alive.”
“Taking them alive” could be just an excuse to get the agents to back off so there would be no gun play.
"Taking them alive" could also be a legit op, but for these punks? What valuable intelligence could possibly be learned from a bunch of rogue robbers/rapists?
If you think about it, taking them alive would at the least mean; capture, arrest, charges, an arraignment, the Mexican Council getting involved, the U.S. Attorney, a trial, sentencing and, of course, press coverage at almost every step.
Does anyone think for a minute that this Administration, or the Mexican government for that matter, wanted any of that? And for what? These guys? If they surrender that's one thing, but to plan to take them alive? Not high value targets at all.
Whatever the case, you can take somebody alive with lethal weapons. It’s done all the time. It's up to the suspect to decide if they want to be taken alive or shoot it out, which in this case they did and Brian Terry died.
Kimberly Dvorak has an excellent piece, Captured Illegal alien in BP agent murder has a U.S. rap sheet identifying one of those captured the day Terry was killed as a multiple deportee with a rap sheet and a conviction for aggravated assault on a police officer.
I remember a lecture delivered to some crybaby on Dragnet years ago by Jack Webb’s Sgt. Joe Friday where he pointed out that if someone is willing to attack a police officer who is armed and trained to defend himself, what would prevent him from attacking anybody else? They’re the most dangerous of criminals.
There are reports of increased helicopter and fixed wing aircraft traffic in the area since Terry’s killing.
There are other reports of drug cartel observation posts up in the hills.
One rancher was witnessed telling a news crew to get the microphone out of his face and get off his property because they were being observed by drug lookouts and he didn’t want any trouble with them after the reporters left.
Reports of drug cartels' observation posts in the mountains have yet to be confirmed by the news media, but it makes sense. They can watch the trails, the roads, the traffic and the airspace and radio the information back to smugglers about to enter the area. The drug lookouts have state of the art technology; level 3 night vision, encrypted radios and burst transmitters making it hard to track them down.
Hostile OPs in mountainous terrain? We have some excellent men perfectly trained for exactly this kind of mission.
I suggest we pull a team of Delta Force, or Green Berets, or SEALs out of the mountains of Afghanistan-Pakistan and pair them up with the 160th S.O.A.R. of Black Hawk Down fame. Put some F.L.I.R. (forward looking infra-red) on the choppers, fly around the hills of southern Arizona near known smuggling routes and when they spot a warm body, insert the teams and take the OPs out. If the drug thugs want to surrender, so be it. If they don’t…so be it.
U.S. Special Forces Operators have an excellent record in the mountains of central Asia of tracking down and killing or capturing those who are smuggling drugs and plan to use the proceeds to kill Americans.
I think we can reliably presume that they will have a similar successful record in the mountains of Arizona of tracking down and killing or capturing those who are smuggling drugs and killing American ranchers and Border Patrol agents. And they won’t be using rubber bullets.
It’s time for answers. There is a lot we don't know, a lot of unconfirmed reports. We need a congressional investigation into this with subpoena power. I can’t imagine anything so secret that we can’t be told about the mission that Brian Terry and his fellow agents were engaged in when he was killed.
I suggest that some of these questions could be asked of DHS Secretary, and former Arizona governor, Janet Napolitano if she should happen to hold a press conference while she's in Arizona to, you know, reassure us that the border is safe and secure.
Rick Oltman is the Founder of The Immigration Tea Party
*********
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. -- Winston Churchill
Comments
God forbid if this is true. This could spark the New American Revolution. Time to lock and load on the Mexican Invasion. Obama has had two years to deal with it and he's done nothing.
Minutemen NEVER carry rubber bullets! Standby Mexico, pain is coming to you soon.
I know many who would gladly join the ranks of
the minutemen and defend our border if our wimpy
president won't do anything to protect this Nation.
I blame it on the idiots who voted for such a piece
of ....
There is a lot of political correctness in the Minutemen
organization. That is why I removed myself from them.
Ret. Supv. Special Agent/Anti-Smuggling
DOJ/INS
FU. Obama hates white people and has nothing to do with Hitler. You are stupid.
This is AWFUL, Rick! I'm going to pass this around. Hopefully, Congressmen Steve King and Lamar Smith need to know this so they can grill Big Sis when she comes before them in January or February. The closest thing to this are the National Guard being put on the Border without their guns or the USS Cole sailors who didn't have loaded weapons when they were blown by the terrorists in the speedboat or the Marines that Reagan sent to Lebanon with unloaded weapons. Insanity, pure insanity.
Well, see. But if proven, and I believe it will be, all of your analogies are correct.
Fabulous suggestion "I suggest we pull a team of Delta Force, or Green Berets, or SEALs out of the mountains of Afghanistan-Pakistan and pair them up with the 160th S.O.A.R. of Black Hawk Down fame. Put some F.L.I.R. (forward looking infra-red) on the choppers, fly around the hills of southern Arizona near known smuggling routes and when they spot a warm body, insert the teams and take the OPs out. If the drug thugs want to surrender, so be it. If they don’t…so be it.
Our Special Forces Operators have an excellent record in killing insurgents and the like ...arm CBP ICE and anyone who is able to protect the USA from these maurauding thugs ...notice how the North County "Checkpoints" have managed to quell the illegal (No CA driving licence holders)drunk drivers at night its almost a ghost town these days.Deport all the damn illegals with there illegal anchor babies to!!!
It is an absolutely outrage that we are defending other countries borders with armed soldiers and here we are, bringing our precious resources, our Marines! To be killed by these third
world country, illiterate, drugged, rapists, killer animals!
And Obama wants amnesty for their ilk? H... NO!
Agent Terry may you R.I.P. thank you for your service hope you didn't die in Vain . My condolences to your family .
Look people, you want the border closed, close it. Or maybe you would just rather complain?
http://wellregulatedamericanmilitias.com/forum/topics/it-is-written
Obama has Agent Terry's blood on his hands. Goodbye to a man who died protecting our rights and security. RIP Agent Terry. His family might not have suffered this loss, if we had a President who was doing his job!
You mean an excuse of a president? All this man does is travel at our expense, spend our borrowed money, him and his brood are nothing but free loaders of the American people. He is clearly showing his incompetence as a leader. How on earth anybody voted for him is beyond comprehension. He is a total waste of time. Send him packing, with or without a birth certificate, he is not a real
American, he lacks what real men have!
You mean like Reagan and the Bushes did? Their administrations were just as guilty if not more so! Do a little research. YOU and all the others who continue to wear blinders are not helping to solve anything. Playing the blame game won't solve a thing. Contact your representatives at the State and Federal levels. Insist that they work together on this issue.
Obama has Agent Terry's blood on his hands. Goodbye to a man who died protecting our rights and security. RIP Agent Terry. His family might not have suffered this loss, if we had a President who was doing his job!
There have been several lookouts discovered in the hills and publicized in the news down here. Pinal County Sheriff Deputys have investiagetd one to my knowledge. A TV crew (I believe KPHO, check their archives) hiked up to one lookout and found a spotter there.
Use of 'throwaway' cell phones are used and can't be traced.
Thank you, I will check it out.
If you have a link to any video, or additional information, please send it to immigrationteaparty@gmail.com I will keep your email confidential.
It disturbs me that Terry was sent out without the correct protection. We have Ms Napolitano coming to AZ either today or tomorrow. I certainly hope she will be advised of what happened with Terry. I don't think it will make any difference to Janny..but this information has to be made public...we all need to know what went on with Terry!! I am totally ashamed that my state & country that would send a man out without what he needed to protect himself!! May Terry R.I.P.!!
Anonymous, you made an interesting statement saying you know many people who would join the MM to defend the border. My question to you is, where have those people been the last 6 years while the MM have been risking their lives and fortunes trying to get you attention to this problem? This has really been going on for a century, and really exploded after the 1986 amnesty which started the wholesale run on our country? I have been down on the border 7 times, a month each, and have never seen more than a handful of patriots each time, out of a country of 300 million, a disappointing and shameful showing, considering the seriousness of the invasion. 50 million illegals and 30 million anchor babies and we are just now getting concerned, well folks---IT IS TO DAMN LATE TO GET CONCERNED NOW, THIS COUNTRY IS LOST!!!!
SeaBee
I disagree, it is NOT too late. But it will be if we don't defeat the Dream Act and secure the borders and deport the illegals that are here.
It is time to hold our elected official's feet to the fire.
Janet Napolitano is trying to keep the lid on the cartel connection in order to maintain her position that "no cartel violence has crossed the border" and so as not to hinder the upcoming vote on the Dream Act. Janet is at the Dog and Pony Show at the Tucson Border Patrol Staion right now as I type this, trying to cover all this up.........
Please tie yourself to a cinder block and dive off a boat.
___________________________________________
America is not a Free Buffet
by Loch David Crane, M. Ed.
member, Border Patrol Auxiliary
22 September 2008
America is not a free buffet
for benefit of those from far away.
We have our borders, customs, laws, and rules
securing our posterity from fools,
criminals, diseased people, and those
who mean us harm and carry bombs.
Malaria and leprosy are brought
by the undocumented who aren’t caught.
The dumb, the desperate or the diseased,
those lacking skills and schooling from “back home,”
all feel entitled through our fence to roam.
They break in here, and that’s why we’re displeased.
But those who choose to come here legally
have done it right---deserving to be free.
If you wouldn't hand a man an automatic AK and a 30 round clip, why would you hand him citizenship in your country?
Until we elected a President who cares more for his/her own people than illegal aliens and their supporters, we'll have an open border. I've prayed for years that our military will be brought home to defend us rather that the people of countries who hate us. We need an impenetrable fence backed up with military and signs warning those who try to trespass to "enter at your own risk."
Crappy Nappy won't do anything more on this than what she's good at: Lip Service. A president who held his cabinet officers to account would have fired this token months ago, and of course she never should have been nominated or confirmed in the first place. She will do nothing. No changes in rules of engagement. No meaningful, long-term increase in BP staffing [yes, there will be temporary redeployments but they'll end as soon as the Lame Stream Media has another story to cover]. The border will be left essentially open...more cheap labor and Democratic votes and more drugs to supply the Georgetown parties.
Good luck getting the true facts of this incident out of DHS. Congressional hearings and the FOIA will be necessary at least, more likely it will take waterboarding.
The controversial "layered defense" they use applies to management culpability as well as border security.
".. A source in Nogales with access to the facts has confirmed the basic truth of the Rick Oltman story in the Examiner.
http://www.examiner.com/immigration-in-san-francisco/rubber-bullets-for-...
The BORTAC team was sent into the area with non-lethal weapons under standing orders of the Chief in Tucson.
The one suspect who was wounded has a rap sheet for assault on police officer and has been deported twice. He is a drug cartel member out of Sinaloa.
Janet Napolitano is trying to keep the lid on the cartel connection in order to maintain her position that "no cartel violence has crossed the border" and so as not to hinder the upcoming vote on the Dream Act.
Chief Victor Manjarrez is the one who issued the non-lethal weapons order. Manjarrez has left disgraced but the order for BORTAC has never been withdrawn.
The fact that Brian Terry was sent into an area known for its violence and bandits carrying AK-47's with a shotgun loaded with beanbags could be what cost him his life.
So what if a Chief doesn't believe in lethal weapons? What gives that Chief the right to value the lives of thugs and thieves over the lives of Border Patrol Agents? "
There might be something to that. I just heard that the ELP CPA (a BORTACer) has been reassigned to Tucson, obviously to fill a vacancy.
It is my understanding the the Commander of the Tucson Sector BORTAC Team has resigned. This goes all the way to the top of CBP and Homeland Security.
I met Agent Terry before leaving AZ. I wished I could of been there for him. Being a former BPA my heart goes out to him and his family.
Pathetic.
The last line is right. They value the lives of thugs and thieves over the lives of Border Patrol Agents.
This all seems to have been planned out to avoid the publicity of Border Patrol agents shooting it out with cartel members and killing them. Which leads to the next question.
If they did capture cartel members, what would they do with them? V.R. them back through the port of entry?
This stinks. The more we hear about this the more it cries out for full investigation.
CBP has been pushing the less than lethal stuff for quite awhile now.
Everything from the bean bag rounds to pepper ball launching systems, similar to paint ball guns, (the face of a kinder, gentler Border Patrol), until someone gets killed because of not having the real thing available.
It's all about the image Homeland Security and CBP want to portray, less about the safety of the agents.
"until someone gets killed because of not having the real thing available"
Yeah, history has shown, repeatedly, that it usually requires a body count to motivate the incompetent, corrupt, cowards at the top to respond.
USBP has been pushing less lethal( i.e. pepper ball launchers) as a response to rock throwers for a few years now. Border Patrol management is so afraid of bad political press they have agents responding to DEADLY FORCE(rocks) with PEPPER DUST. ALL Border Patrol upper management that has pushed the less lethal approach when responding to a deadly force should be fired.
I come home from work and read that this Marine had to carry rubber bullets?? He wasn't at a protest, HE WAS AT THE FRONT LINE OF A WAR!!!!!!
I've patrolled that area and many others all over AZ as a Minuteman. Agents we come across tell us do not go anywhere without a rifle at least. One even asked if we could bring a tank! This is insanity!!!!! TIME FOR WAR!!!
If the liberal filth are making our border patrol agents work with "Non lethal" rounds while working then I think we should agree with them and have all of the Secret Service that are protecting the liberal politicians also be restricted to "Non lethal" weapons while performing their duties.
Maybe the 10th Mountain Division could run some training exersizes down in Az.
Yeah, live fire.
Back in 2007 Numbersusa issued a report on observation and listening posts on Arizona hill tops manned by armed Mexicans with police or military training and equipped with the latest equipment. Their sources of information were Fish and Game, Forest Service personnel and local law enforcement. They could not get anybody in the media to take the story, not even Lou Dobbs. This year some Arizona sheriffs have commented on cartel listening and observation posts and Chris Kobach has said that eliminating them would be an appropriate task for the U.S. military. Does anybody really think we will hear about any of this in the main stream media or from any part of the U.S. federal government?
Apo, our group has found a few of these sites and they are pretty basic. No high tech equipment cause they do not need it. BP drives around with their lights on so you do not need thermal or night vision to see them. BP is not tactical in any way because they are a law enforcement org, not a military org and this problem is being fought from a law enforcement perspective. At these sites we have found a hide made with a garbage bag roof with fresh vegetation on it to defeat thermal cameras from BP helos because plastic defeats thermal the same way fog defeats night vision, it just doesn't penetrate through it. We also found canned food, binoculars, cooking stove, sleeping bags and solar panels with kenwood radio chargers. They climb down, meet the load and swap out radios, giving the smugglers fresh ones while they climb back up and charge the depleted radio. We have even witnessed helicopters dropping lookouts off onto these hills and mountaintops. It is a full blown war down there, that is for sure.
The main reason that this gutless government refuses to really clean up the border is because of the billion dollars or more a day of cross border trade that the US does with Mexico each and everyday.
I have followed this open border mess for a number of years and I believe there is a lot more to all of this than just a farmer claiming to need field workers. And I believe that trade is why the US Chamber of Commerce seems to be so defensive of the millions of illegal aliens that are in this country. i googled some info about trade and it seems that reps from the Chamber spends a lot of time in Mexico working on trade deals. This is why when you are buying groceries you will see the directions in Spanish and English on almost everything you buy. I called one of the companies about this and I was told they do a lot of trade with Mexico. This is why this government does not want a shooting war on the border it's bad for business and they don't care how many US citizens have to die for it. But the drug cartels are the wild card in all of this.
Correct, it is about money. All about the money.
1. Cheap labor for employers.
2. The customers they become with their first paycheck.
It isn't more complicated than that.
All the amnesty talk is designed to encourage more to come, and convince those thinking of leaving, to stay.
An economy can be an export economy or a consumer economy. Since we exported a lot of manufacturing, we must be a consumer society.
The aging Baby Boomers must be replaced as consumers. Once they hit 50, their spending slows down.
What better consuming class to replace the Baby Boom consumers than Mexicans. They come with nothing, they want everything.
They grow up on a diet of American TV and movies and they know exactly how we live, and have friends and family already living here, they want to live here too.
And who can blame them?
When the amnesty talk begins, those thinking about coming say to themselves, we better get there while the amnesty window is open.
The business model is to continue to import consumers.
By 2050 there will 500 million people living in America at the current rate of legal immigration, illegal immigration and the children they will have.
Business will have its customers and the only cost will be the rule of law, our culture and our country.
But what the hell, business will have its customers, won't they.
We of the ACS, will not be using non-lethal ammo. In fact, we use the most lethal that we can find and will not hesitate using it when we come across armed cartel. We've been on the border deterring this invasion for over 6 mos. and will continue our mission until the border is sealed and our country is safe. For info on our org. go to www.americancivilsentinels.ning.com.
I am hoping to hell that this is NOT true.... because, as the article states, arming warriors with water pistols is insane at the very best!! I would not blame EVERY border patrol agent if they just gave their two week notice........
From what I heard, two of the BORTAC guys had shotguns with rubber bullets in them, the other two agents had M-4's.
When the bandits came down the trail they only saw 4 of them (there was actually 5) They knew the first two were carrying AK's.
Two agents engaged the front two bandits with the non-lethal rounds, and that is when all hell broke loose.
5 bandits returned fire... Agent Terry dove for cover, and that is when he was hit in the back.
Rick, thank you for reporting this story!
It's pretty simple really. Either the Feds or the State seal our Southern borders and get things under control here, or I will help build membership for the American people to do it themselves. And someone mentioned the word "vigilante" on of my facebook threads talking about the border muster I attended yesterday.
"A vigilante is someone who illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker, or participates in a group which metes out extralegal punishment to an... alleged lawbreaker. " - Wikipedia.
Nothing illegal about what we did yesterday. In fact, the first thing that was done was the command leader called Border Patrol, gave them our location, the number of people in our group, and the makes and models of our vehicles. This group is responsible for aiding in the apprehension of IAs. Their mission is also simple. To observe and report suspicious activity to the BP. AND WE WERE NOT ARMED WITH RUBBER BULLETS!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=469781&l=95f88b6cf8&id=172...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=469770&l=89affa7296&id=172...
Apparently, my facebook links are not working. Please visit and contact me at facebook/JillArizona if you would like to help.
Rick and everyone - something else very important that some of us are working on unrelated to my border musters. We organized this event:
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/04/26/cleaning-up-our-trashed-border/
...and now we are currently working on a very large event in honor of Agent Terry. We will need EVERYONE'S help on this. It will take mass people and mass media coverage. Location will be somewhere along the AZ/Mexico border. Please stay tuned and we have the tentative date scheduled for Saturday, January 29th.
And my friend Lisa Ruth says it best...
"We in Southern AZ are organizing right now and we need all of you! Again, keep SATURDAY, JANUARY 29, 2011 a day designated to respond to the federal government SOUNDLY! We are going to do just that! As the administration tries to keep this hush, hush - we're getting the word out!"
It was said years ago that the United States does not wish to really stop the drug coming in from south & central america because it would destroy the banking industry south of our border. If the United States is such a superpower why cant it shut down a couplef thousand miles of the US southern border. Do like East and West Germany did and make a buffer zone. If you were caught in the buffer zone you was free game. The U.S. has a real problem when shutting it down. They have the manpower so what is their true reason they don't want it shut down.
I am hispanic fourth generation American.This coment is for Mr Rick Oltman .MY Family of four live in a south Texas border town we see the negative impact that illegal immigration has on our country. Iam sick and tired of special interest groups telling lies and using propaganda to push for ammnesty. Border patrol agents and American citizens are being killed and American blood is a high price to pay for cheap labor and mexican votes I have written letters to our politicians but it seems nothing gets done. How can we solve the illegal immigration problem do you have any ideas I am willing to help. In my opinion any one that is pro illegal immigration is not an American.
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