
Rifqa Video
Anyone watching the blogosphere now knows Rifqa Bary. Born Muslim, she converted to Christianity and fled her home in New Albany Ohio and went to Orlando Florida to the home of a pastor she met on Facebook. This video surfaced on August 10th, Rifqa's 17th birthday, which began the the cacophony.
There were immediately two competing narratives. Rifqa's attorney John Stemberger asserts that Rifqa suffered a history of physical and sexual abuse, and she is now fighting for her life. Anti-Muslim bloggers like Pamela Geller of Atlas Shrugs and Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch immediately jumped into the fray. In this narrative an extremely devout Muslim family from a radical Ohio mosque are trying to fly their apostate daughter back to Sri Lanka for an “honor killing.” The Bary family insists that they've never made any such threats, that the girl is free to practice any religion, and they just want their family whole again. In this narrative a cult of Evangelical Christians used the Internet to brainwash her into leaving her religion and her family and move the Florida.
On the Evangelical side this is an opportunity to dump on Islam, and the girl is the frosting that makes the guano palatable. On the Muslim side the focus is on defending Islam, and there's little regard for the details of the case. But I found serious problems with both narratives. Now, I think I've found something few others are talking about.
The first thing that was clear was the Rifqa learned about "honor killings" from Christians not from Muslims. Periodically in the video, when she's flustered, she looks over to someone off camera. This is a tell when someone has been coached. They seek visual confirmation by making eye contact. At the five minute mark she says, "It's in the Quran." Which it's not, but then she looks off camera and says, "You can, like, give them knowledge about it." She gestures, and a man answers unintelligibly. Then she says to the reporter, "He really will explain it and break it down. They have to do this!" Who ever that man is... he is the coach. And we know it's not the pastor because he's holding her, but I'm certain he had a hand in it. He's quoted as having said, "These are the last days, these are the end times, and this conflict between Islam and Christianity is going to grow greater. This conflict between good and evil is going to grow greater." Do you see why it makes no sense? If this is her religion, her upbringing, her life... she would be fluent in it's details. She wouldn't need someone else to explain it for her.
But that's not enough. Blake Lorenz had only had her for a few weeks in Florida. That's time for coaching, but not for brainwashing. So, I looked to her church activity in Ohio. Only a few articles briefly mention that she attended Church called Xenos Christian Fellowship. A little Googling on this group immediately brings the whole picture into view. Message boards and articles about the Xenos Fellowship are filled with comments about the group's cultish tendencies, specifically it's manipulative efforts to isolate people from their friend's and family.
Xenos means "Alien" as in the members of the Church, called "Xenoids," should be aliens in this world, seeking only their home in Heaven. Ex-Xenoids speak of years of rigid social control and peer pressure before they could get out and ostracism once they left. Stories emerge of "Leaders" running a "Ministry House" where groups of older members live together and host "Home Church" to "Cell Groups" of high school and junior high aged members. The group takes 13 and 14 year old girls out on "Bible Study" camping retreats with college aged boys.
Ex-leaders describe a community where adults and youth are discouraged from socializing outside the fold without bringing another Xenoid along. Where leaders conspire to orchestrate the romantic relationships of members by pairing "workers" together and breaking off "fringe" members. Others describe losing loved ones to the Church, their siblings, or children or even spouses being so engrossed in the Church they abandon all other ties. They describe the Church as preying on confused teenagers, exploiting their weaknesses and then jumping in to "save" them. Even worse they have on staff an on call psychologist to keep people in line.
Annemarie Smith, creator of Parents Against Xenos calls the Church the "Xenos Cult", and their leader, "The Devil Man." At her blog she describes her son's history with the Xenos Cult, which is not at all unlike Rifqa's story. Her son Tom, like Rifqa, was an honor roll student. A charismatic over achiever. But like Rifqa he was relatively new to the area, and needed friends. Members seek out candidates with family problems, or who just don't fit in somehow. Just as Muhammad describes his daughter, Annemarie described Tom as,"speaking as if reading from a script." Like Rifqa he was baptised in his new religion. He told his family that he did not feel as connected to them as to his new Church, and he could not have relationships that were not centered around God. So complete was the group's control over Tom that he called to threaten her into shutting down her website. But she continues in good faith that her son will come around. The leader then accused her of carrying on a, "terror campaign" when she stood outside the Church's meetings with signs saying, "I want my son back." In her crusade against the Xenos Cult Annemarie has pulled many from the flock, but not Tom.
Let me be clear. I subscribe to a principle which is as Islamic as it is American, that the accused be considered innocent until proven guilty. I consider the father innocent of the allegations of abuse until I see evidence. Similarly, I consider the pastor innocent of the allegations of brainwashing until I see evidence. I believe that this is most likely what happened to Rifqa. The flavor is different, but the results are the same.
Rifqa and her attorney, John Stemberger describe her family as "extremely devout" and try to connect the family with terrorism in the community. The Muslim response has been that Muhammad is not very devout. His daughter was a cheerleader, and his son drinks beer and parties.

I don't think this is a good argument. What you do by making this argument is you concede that devout Muslims are violent, and you throw the Bary family under the bus to save Islam from controversy. If you want to jump to the defense of Islam, just link people to the hundreds of scholars who confirm that the death penalty for apostasy comes from a time in history when apostasy was synonymous with treason. It has no place in the modern world. There is no compulsion in religion. Islam is not on trial here. We are talking about a specific person. And specific people are capable of murder. Do not allow this to be an argument about Islam. Stand up for justice for the girl!
The family insists that they've never made any threats. Character witnesses from amongst the family's friends and neighbors confirm that they are not as they are being portrayed. Sgt. Jerry Cupp of the Columbus Police Department told the Associated Press that Bary "comes across to me as a loving, caring, worried father about the whereabouts and the health of his daughter." , and police say they have found no evidense of abuse. But this does not support the allegation that Blake Lorenz brainwashed and kidnapped the girl into an Evangelical cult. Screenshots from Rifqa's Myspace show her proclaiming "JC" as her savior in 2007, long before she met Blake Lorenz. He may be a charlatan who's enjoying his moment in the spot light.
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I believe the most likely culprit here is the Xenos Cult, a group that specifically emphasizes verses where Jesus tells the disciples to leave their family, disown their loved ones. Xenos tears families apart.
As Muslims I think we must suspend judgement, because if we deny the facts, and we bunker down in defense of Islam, and we're wrong, we will have lost all credibility. The Truth will out. A judge ordered the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to investigate the abuse allegations, while Rifqa is staying with a temporary guardian in Florida until the next hearing scheduled for September 3rd. If any of these allegations are true the Facebook records will show it. We must stand in defense of the girl, because Rifqa is the victim in any scenario.
We must contend with the reality that she is a 17 year old woman who in all likelihood genuinely believes her life is in danger. Even if she's wrong, that fear is real. Can we in good conscience force her to return to a family she's terrified of?If you ask me she needs a psychiatrist who specializes in cult deprogramming. Who ever the culprit is, she's probably suffering from extreme emotional and psychological damage. I think that we must seriously consider advocating for her emancipation?
Rifqa Part II: The fake apostate Conspiracy
Rifqa Part III: the FDLE joke!
Rifqa Part IV: Raising the Nazirites
Rifqa Bary's inconsistencies
Apostasy Part II: Reasonable Doubt
Honor Killings: Lies, Damn lies and Statistics
Rifqa's YouTube debut (8/10/2009)
The FDLE Interview (8/24/2009)
Rifqa's Affidavit (8/30/2009)
The Lou Engle interview (9/24/2009)


Comments
I have a hard time believing Rifqa's story. When I first saw her video, I could tell she was full of it. This is not the way a person scared for their life acts. I could be wrong, but it does look staged.
I checked out the atlas shrugs site and find that the author is severely biased against Muslims. She also thinks Palin would make a good president for 2012... Yeah, her credibility is pretty much shot as is her intelligence.
Ultra conservatives are idiots.. What else can be said. The main support for the Iraq war was through Christians, as has been many atrocities. They love to scream persecution, yet refuse to accept that they are the ones pushing it out.
Sorry for ranting, but as an unbiased (not Muslim or Christian) viewer I can see it happening again. There is no credible evidence that supports her, but just because this has become a religious issue it doesn't matter.
It does seem incredible - until you look at what Muslim do to converts from Islam - often in their own families.
In the UK the British police are taking it so seriously - that every cop will be trained in how to deal with honour crime - there are so many reasons for it -
Marriage is one - since Muslims often marry their cousins - marrying outside of the family could lead to death.
Marrying a non-Muslim also forms the basis for honour crime - often these Muslims or former Muslims are forced into hiding - under police protection - because their families want to kill them.
Got it!
In Saudi Arabia a religious policeman found that is daughter had converted to Christianity - he too found out through her web page - and killed her - in his own home.
There have been cases where the mother holds the girl down while the father puts the knife in the USA.
The mosque where Rifqa Bary's father went was known to be radical or have radical links.
In Turkey they have honor suic
"There is no compulsion in religion. Islam - not on trial here."
This is only for non-Muslims - not apostates!
It goes on to say that non-Muslims must willing pay the jizya tax - so that they know they have been subjugated (Koran) and if they don't they must either convert to Islam or (die) more be fought against - until all they have is brought under Islam
Did she also learn that putting converts to Christianity in the asylum in Sri Lanka - from Christians as well!
Muhammad said - kill those who leave their religion (of Islam)!
The four schools of Islamic jurusprudence all say those who leave Islam should be killed.
In most Muslim countries there is no penalty for killing - someone who leaves Islam
Yes - perhaps the girl was a little confused
Wiki: The execution for apostasy was abolished in most Muslim lands in the 19th century either through European pressure or through the direct European rule; however, cases of imprisonment and deportation of apostates stil
My personal feeling is that the girls life isnt in danger and my sympathies are more with her family.
Nevertheless, it is downright ridiculous to say that Islam doesnt call for killing apostates simply because there is no Quranic verse that supports this (other than 4:89 and a few others perhaps). It has always been very much a part of Sharia where word games over treason and freedom of conscience arent played.
Technically, there is no verse in the Quran that tells Muslims to pray five times a day either, but you would have a hard time convincing most that this isnt what their religion requires. The reason is that it is in the Hadith as is Muhammads explicit order to kill those who change their religion.
HAHAHA
this tis the best Hollywood story of the year 2009 straight of America like always American are the best when it comes to do shows and this one is one of it, if this Girl was really afraid and scared of her life to death she want be speaking faster and speedier than a plane Foooooooools..only fools will believe on those stupid stories.
and yes i am a Muslim and proud to be living it and what ever those fools doesn't like about Islam and try to conspire .. well let them do it because God (Allah) is the best of the planners.
Allah u Akbar
"the frosting that makes the guano palatable" nice.
I think it's despicable that people read stories like this and either want to attack or defend Islam. "Islam" doesn't even exist. Only people exist. Mohamad exists. Blake exists. Rifqa exists. You people are so cought up in which ever bigotry you have for or against Islam that you can't even see the people involved.
Why is this garbage hate speech allowed on this website? The Quran doesn't ask anyone to kill. No honour killings are mentioned in it.
The ignorance portrayed by the author is highlighted because I spent 7 years in Sri Lanka working for the Red Cross. Sri Lankan Muslims are liberal Island folks.
These articles and extremist bible-thumpers in Florida give all Americans, including our brave troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, a bad name/
Actually nothing in Quran says to kill a convert. Anyone quoting lines will never provide a link to a source or even a page of a Quran.
What is mentioned is a story, during time of war, the commanders of the Muslim Army at the time had asked their generals to kill anyone converting and aiding the enemy. Treason was to be punished by death. Some Scientologist who hates Islam and Christianity spewed it out as honour killings and the ignorant just repeat...Bravo!
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
http://www.examiner.com/muslim-in-san-francisco/apostasy-an-unqualified-...
BTW, a great article! Well researched......
Joseph, I'm a little confused. I thought you were refering to the comments, but you said, "ignorance portrayed by the author." Did I leave you with the impression that I was writing hate speech? Or that I was siding with the "bible-thumpers"? If you could clarify. If you could share some of your experiences in Sri Lanka I'd greatly appreciate it. I traveled there as a child, but I remember very little. Do you know whether or not the convert asylums actually exist? I've ben unable to confirm this.
My personal feeling is that the girls life isnt in danger and my sympathies are more with her family.
Nevertheless, it is downright ridiculous to say that Islam doesnt call for killing apostates simply because there is no Quranic verse that supports this (other than 4:89 and a few others perhaps). It has always been very much a part of Sharia where word games over treason and freedom of conscience arent played.
Technically, there is no verse in the Quran that tells Muslims to pray five times a day either, but you would have a hard time convincing most that this isnt what their religion requires. The reason is that it is in the Hadith as is Muhammads explicit order to kill those who change their religion.
All planted stuff ...
golden globe to the girl ... you bring down your frustration through this .. so be it !!
@jeff .. what the hell do you know about muslims ... we are not bound to marry ny one ... we dont necessarily marry our cousins .. em from pakistan ... and i bet on it more than 90 percent of the marriages are out of family and every one is free to marry whomsoever he wants to ... 0
Simon- You cannot kill apostates.
I think this evidence can trump yours easily.
"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the right way. (4:138)"
If Islam permitted apostates then the above verse would stop after the first disbelief.
"Xenos Cult"... please. The girl obviously didn't want to be Muslim anymore, so she converted to Christianity, and ran for it when her family threatened her life with an honor killing.
Sadly, this kind of thing happens all the time in the Muslim world. Articles like this only serve to excuse Muslim violence. Though it's written by a Muslim, so I shouldn't be surprised.
the quran and the hadiths are all about VIOLENCE AND TORTURE.. MUHAMMAD GAUGED EYES OUT AND CUT OFF HANDS AND FEET. BARBARIC , REPULSIVE!
SAHIH BUKARI VOLUME 8, BOOK 82, HADITH .795:
The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit? and so
they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that
their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes
should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their
cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die. "
Why is this in the koran? this is a book encourages the shedding of innocent blood and those who do not believe in Islam!
The truth will come out and every lie of mohammad will be expose. for he is a false prophet:
If this poor young woman gets sent back to her parents she will surely die.
"When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed. In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses,? he is immediately killed." -- 'Umdat al-Salik o8.1-2
"Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." -- Muhammad
HONOR KILLING IS IN THE QUR'AN!
D. Baker! Research before writing your articles.
In Qur'an, in the Chapter Al-Kahf, there is a story of how Moses learned about Islam from a servant of Allah. The Story goes that one day Moses witnessed the servant of Allah killing a child and says (Qur'an 18:74) "Why did you kill such an innocent person, who did not kill another person? The servant of Allah explains (Qur'an 18:80) his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them with his transgression and DISBELIEF
Everyone, Anyone, Google these verses (Qur'an 18:74 and Qur'an 18:80) if you doubt me.
LamamelK, I have to admit that's the most creative one I've heard yet, and I thought I'd heart it all. Pulling out the story of Khadir to prove honor killing... wow! Yes please. Everyone go and read the story of Khadir in the Quran. In fact read the whole chapter of the Cave. It will be a medicine for you. But the question remains... who is Khadir? There isn't consensus amongst the scholars, but I personally like the interpretation that he is an Angel sent to teach Moses that sometimes when something seems like a tragedy when it happens, there is benefit in it for you in the long run.
The only link between Rifqa and this "Xenos" group appears to come from a statement from her father. All other sources indicate a small Korean Christian church. Has anyone independently substantiated any contact between Rifqa and this Xenos group, or does it only come from the father and/or the people who are advising him?
Further, as far as I can tell from the interview and the affidavits, Rifqa's attorney made no claims of "sexual" abuse.
Finally, after the Islamic honor-murder cases of Amina and Sara Said, Aqsa Parvez, and Aasiya Hassan -- all easily found on Google by a young woman allegedly threatened by her mosque and her family -- you'd think we'd know by now that when a Muslim woman says she is in danger of Islamic honor-murder, we'd better believe her or we'll quickly have another strangled, shot, drowned, bludgeoned and/or beheaded corpse on our hands.
I appreciate Mr. Barker's giving Rifqa the benefit of the doubt.
Cat, thank you for your fair minded response. All of these murders are horrible tragedies and I fully condemn any initiation of violence for non violent actions. I try to be impartial, but I just don't think that's what is going on here.
Since this was published I've been able to confirm a bit more about Rifqa's involvement with Xenos through my contacts in Ohio. More on Thursday. I'm not sure what to think about the Korean Church. Their website's not in English. And it's literally right around the corner from Xenos. Why would you go to a Korean speaking service if there's an English speaking congregation just a few blocks away?
For the record... better safe than sorry. That's why I'm pulling for emancipation. I don't want her forced to live anywhere.
LamamelK-
The story of Al-Khidr cannot be used as evidence for honor killings.
1. He was a Prophet who was receiving revelation from Allah. Do you see where I am going with the rest of this?
2. This story has never been used as evidence for anything even related to honor killings in Islamic Law, ever.
SpeakTruth:
Notice the key part of what you quoted being Caliph/ Islamic Ruler. No Islamic State = No Islamic Ruler = No Shariah Law = No Islamic Judicial Punishments
To Quote an Islamic Jurist:
Ibn Muflih al-Hanbali said
"It is haraam for anyone to carry out a hadd punishment except the ruler or his deputy. This is something on which the fuqaha of Islam are unanimously agreed, as was stated in al-Mawsooah al-Fiqhiyyah (5/280): The fuqaha are unanimously agreed that the one who should carry out hadd punishments is the ruler or his deputy, whether the punishment is transgressing one of the limits of Allaah, may He be exalted, such as zina, or a transgression against another person, such as slander"
al-Furoo (6/53)
Do you understand what that is saying?It means Honor Killings are not permitted under Islamic Law. It means Punishment for Apostacy only exists in an Islamic State, ruled by an Islamic Ruler, ruling with Shariah and can only be carried out by him or a deputy
go to www.thereligionofpeace.com
Islam is not true. Islam kills jews and christians, then the sunni's and shia's kill each other. unless your head has been in the sand the last 50 years anybody would know this. islam IS NOT a religion of peace and tolerance. this girl's parents are liars. in islam it is o.k. to lie to infidels (non-believers, like news media).
IGNORE "Marco", he is an islamic LIAR for the false god allah
I think it's very important to point out that when we're talking about "Honor Killing" and "Hadd Punishment" we're talking about something very different. Hadd Punishment refers to physical punishment in Sharia for certain crimes, most of which are incredibly harsh by Western standards. Cutting the hand for theft for example. But these are meant for a society where these are the greatest crimes which occur, and they are not universally applicable. For example, you can't punish a thief who is in poverty. The concept of law is different that in the West.
Marco - I serious suggest you research and think very deeply before you begin discussing things like the death penalty. You make a good point about the need for an Islamic state, which we obviously don't have anywhere on Earth right now. But many scholars have made some very strong arguments from Quran and Hadith that apostasy is not a capital offense, but it's apostasy plus treason. My link in the article is a good place to start.
"Honor Killing" is largely cultural and totally un Islamic. It is the killing of members of ones own family because of perceived slights against the tribe or clan. It's largely cultural and not part of Islamic Law. It's despicable and condemnable behavior and I think any perpetrator of it aught to be put to death for murder.
mr sunset - I'd like to pose a question I asked in a previous article. Do you have any Muslims friends? Ever met a Muslim? Or learned anything about Islam from a Muslim? Or is your entire opinion copy and pasted from these Jihahwatch type websites?
Islam can't kill anybody. Islam is an idea. Only people kill people. You're assertion that it's ok for Muslims to lie to infidels is a corruption of a ruling in which it's ok to lie under torture, or to save human life. Who would dispute that?
Here, consider the history of the Tamil/Sinhsalese conflict in Sri Lanka. Nothing to do with Muslims. I'll summarize:
The Tamil are Hindu, and the Sinhalese are Buddhist. They have coexisted in Sri Lanka for centuries. Tamils generally controlled the northern part and Sinhalese the southern part. In 1505 the Portuguese occupied Sri Lanka and seized control, and it remained a colony of one foreign power of another until 1948 when the Tamil and the Sinhalese fought together to gain their independence. Since then the two groups have been fighting against each other for control of Sri Lanka. This Civil War includes assassinations... car bombings... and all your typical bloodthirsty savagery.
Does this not bear a striking resemblance to the conflict between Sunnis and Shia in Iraq?
The blowback of occupation is sectarian violence. When societies are allowed self determination they find a way to negotiate and trade with their neighbors. They form natural borders, and establish equilibriums of influence. When a foreign occupying force comes in and relocates people, and divides people who were previously unified, or unifies people who were previously divided, it creates civil unrest. Where once there was an equilibrium of influence, now there an artificial nation state, and within that nation state there are seats of power, the ruler of which has authority over the other group... which creates the need in both groups to occupy those seats of power in order to once again possess self determination. Where once there were natural borders, now there are artificial lines drawn by foreign powers who make enemies of brothers, or countrymen of strangers because now self determination is only achieved at the expense of someone else's self determination.
Some Muslims have fallen into this trap. Sunnis kill Shia, not because Islam says to kill Shia, but because they want control of this artificial nation state. Because they want self determination. Palestinians kills Jews in Israel/Palestine not because Islam says to kill Jews, but because they want control of this artificial nation state in order to have self determination. Hutus kill Tootsies. Buddhists kill Hindus... and on and on.
Political violence in the Muslim world today is not consistent in Islamic history, and it is not caused by Islam. It is the result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1924, and the subsequent dividing of territory arbitrarily by British and American powers... to export resources.
The Muslims who know their history rightfully see the foreign power and not the neighbor as the enemy. And so they call for the removal of US and British forces from all Muslim lands.
That's the facts. That's the logic. That's the Truth.
Davi one little fact you left out. Rifqa herself said her father threatened to kill her: I had a laptop and he took that laptop and waved it in the air and he was about to beat me with it, and he said, If you have this Jesus in your heart, youre dead to me. Youre not my daughter. I will kill you.
So it's not Stemberger/Geller/Spencer against the Bary family.
It's Rifqa's word vs. her father's and mother's word.
Is it all plausible that a Muslim would threaten an apostate with death? Is it at all plausible that a Muslim father would threaten to kill his daughter?
You know full well that, independent of what "correct" Islam actually is, there are innumerable precedents of both.
Kamala - Absolutely. That possiblitiy exists. Which is why I suspend judgement, await evidense, and advocate emancipation. The basic point I'm making is that the details in this case are really fishy, and I wanted to present a narrative that I hadn't seen anyone presenting.
I think it is likely that Muhammad has a temper, and says things out of passion. But that does not make him a terrorist just because some people accused of terrorist activity had leadership roles at the same mosque years ago amongs the thousands of people who also attend there. Otherwise you may as well just round up all the Muslim children in Culumbus Ohio, because anyone who has any connection to that mosque is clearly an unfit parent.
Davi.
Me creative? As a muslim you should know I didnt write the Quran! In the Quran the honor Killer Khadir is a servant of Allah, all knowledgeable in the ways of Allah, who refers to himself in plural as we. Why? He represents Islam. So its easy to see why 5000 muslims a year commit honor killings. In the Quran, Moses (borrowed from the bible) is appalled at what Khadir does. 1400 years later non-muslims are still appalled by the honor killings, stonings, misogyny, etc, tacitly approved of by Islamic law.
I sincerely hope everyone reads the Quran & Hadiths. Because only those trying to rationalize Islam could see much good in them. To everyone else to whom the norm is forgiveness, rehabilitation and innocent til proven guilty the Quran & Hadith are a travesty. Yes, the bible is harsh too, but its not our law. We have SECULAR laws that treat everyone fairly regardless of race, religion or gender, unlike Islamic countries where a non-muslim could never write as you do here
Davi.
Me creative? As a muslim you should know I didnt write the Quran! In the Quran the honor Killer Khadir is a servant of Allah, all knowledgeable in the ways of Allah, who refers to himself in plural as we. Why? He represents Islam. So its easy to see why 5000 muslims a year commit honor killings. In the Quran, Moses (borrowed from the bible) is appalled at what Khadir does. 1400 years later non-muslims are still appalled by the honor killings, stonings, misogyny, etc, tacitly approved of by Islamic law.
I sincerely hope everyone reads the Quran & Hadiths. Because only those trying to rationalize Islam could see much good in them. To everyone else to whom the norm is forgiveness, rehabilitation and innocent til proven guilty the Quran & Hadith are a travesty. Yes, the bible is harsh too, but its not our law. We have SECULAR laws that treat everyone fairly regardless of race, religion or gender, unlike Islamic countries where a non-muslim could never write as you do here
Davi.
You won. You've won the record of Examiner writer who as had to write back the most to justify himself and his article to commentators.
BTW, I don't have a problem with muslims, I have a problem with Islam and the use of this archaic religion as a source of law. You cannot deny that by raising the Quran and ahadith to legal status, as in Sharia, you are giving the un-schooled, marginalized masses a hand held source (the quran / ahadith) from which they can formulate their own interpretations and dispense justice. This is why in rural regions all over the muslim world, men marry girls as young as 9, honor killings/suicides are rampant, slavery, stonings, decapitations, lack of justice and unequal rights for women are commonplace.
Give a people 1400 year old laws and they will be as they where 1400 years ago. It is no surprise the muslim world is so far behind the rest technologically and with regards to human rights.
Dear Mr. Barker,
Is there any developing information on Rifqa's alleged association with the Xenos group, as you mentioned you might have today? Given the apparent nature of this group, it is very pertinent, I think, to the discussion. However, the sources of the information must be carefully validated from other than the claims of the father or his handlers/legal team (unless, of course, they present detailed and substantiated information as in Stemberger's affidavit).
Further, just as a note about "orthodox" Islam, we are all aware that Islam is not a monolithic entity. However, at some point, decisions must be made. If I were researching Catholicism, I would rely upon the Catechism. With Islam, it seems to be necessary to rely upon a consensus of imams, such as found in the "Reliance of the Traveller" from Al-Azhar (for the Sunni schools) -- which states that apostates must be killed, and that parents are not subject to punishment for the murder of their children.
Homosexuality, transexuals, adulters, bastards, cheats, drug addicts, alcaholics, greed
all these filth and much more can be attributed to the western advanced world.
I'd rather live in the 7th century thank you
Some Muslims have fallen into this trap. Sunnis kill Shia, not because Islam says to kill Shia, but because they want control of this artificial nation state. Because they want self determination. Palestinians kills Jews in Israel/Palestine not because Islam says to kill Jews, but because they want control of this artificial nation state in order to have self determination. Hutus kill Tootsies. Buddhists kill Hindus... and on and on.
Political violence in the Muslim world today is not consistent in Islamic history, and it is not caused by Islam. It is the result of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1924, and the subsequent dividing of territory arbitrarily by British and American powers... to export resources.
The Muslims who know their history rightfully see the foreign power and not the neighbor as the enemy. And so they call for the removal of US and British forces from all Muslim lands.
That's the facts. That's the logic. That's the Truth.
She's 17, she should keep it tied up in court until she's 18.
Sparky - that's why I advocate emancipation.
America needs to stop importing the Islam. Go home and be happy. It's the same crappola wherever these dogs go. Shove your Sharia where the sun don't shine.
john 2000 - I was born here, where do you suggest I go? I would be perfectly happy to move to the Middle East, just one thing though... do you think America could take all their military bases, all their puppet dictators, all their oil companies, all their CIA operatives, all their economic hit-men and shove them? How about that?
Everyone should stop relying on the media for information. I completely believe that one can 'find Jesus' but one can also find that 'honor killings' aren't even mentioned in the Quran. Please research further before commenting. There is no evidence that Bary's parents are a threat to her, just as there is no evidence that the Pastor is a threat to her. Please stop from jumping to conclusions. Rifqa deserves the freedom to practice whatever she wishes and practice it freely in peace. Just as any Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, what have you should. Maybe we should all look at the truths in all of the faiths in the world and find tolerance amongst ourselves instead of throwing hate amongst each other and intolerance. Educated Muslims are not violent people, just as Educated Christians. Let's look at Waco - that's not right, just as honor killings aren't right. We can't judge a religion by its people.
Peace and blessings,
Davi Barker, This was an excellent take on looking at this article. What i get out of this more than any other point, which i think many are still missing... Stop assuming. None of us on either side know the facts of the case we don't know what went on or not in the household and out. I don't care how you feel about Islam, or christianity you can't assume that those pretentious ideas apply in this case.
Peace
DAVI - you are careful to ridicule the idea that all of the Noor Mosque Muslims are terrorists.
But even Stemberger would agree with you.
But how many from Noor have issued a Fatwa against bin Laden by name? The answer is the same # of American Muslims who have issued such a Fatwa. Zero.
Which is also the same number of vocal Muslims internationally supporting Geert Wilders, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan....
If you ask a meaningful question, you can get a meaningful answer. The demographics of Islamic silence at Islamic terror daily shout to all who will listen of the true nature of Islam. But only to those who will listen.
I used to smoke pot long ago. Ive been free from this now for 15 years by Gods grace.
While smoking pot, Id come up with the most outlandish, off-the-wall, hysterically insane, assumptions of how certain events related to each other.
Fortunately, while I was walking thru this psychotic season of my life, the internet was not readily yet. Otherwise, I probably would have published many a wild and outlandish tale on a blog, all at the cost of those involved in my creative brainstorms.
Instead, I wrote my silly stories on my PC. How grandiose and amazing they seemed while stoned! The next day when I sobered up, I would read my tales and realize how messed up pot made my ability to reason.
Eventually Christ turned this all around for me. Today I can say there is a way to freedom from the clutches of drugs. For anyone reading this who needs help: know there is a way out!
If you seek help, with God, you will find the help you need.
Thanks for letting me share.
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