At the turn of the 20th century, C.I. Scofield published his famous "Scofield Reference Bible", which popularized a system of theology called "Dispensationalism" (which had been invented and developed 50 years prior by John Nelson Darby). Dispensationalism caught on among Fundamentalists and later, Evangelicals, as its complex system of charts and interpretive principles spread through home Bible study courses, Bible colleges, radio programs and popular literature.
Then, 40 years ago, Dispensationalist author Hal Lindsay published the international bestseller "The Late Great Planet Earth"...and "Bible Prophecy" became a hotbed of study for many who became convinced that the Bible provided detailed descriptions of what was going on in the world of the late 20th century. This continues today all around the world in Christian media...just do a Google search for "Bible Prophecy" if you are in doubt!
Below is an excerpt from a conversation this author had with someone who holds to the Dispensational outlook in which the underlying assumptions are examined and challenged:
On current world events resembling Jesus’ words in the Olivet Discourse - But you have to admit that with the weapons and technology we have today that the stakes have increased exponentially. We now have the ability to exterminate everyone in the world, or control them through technology (cybernetic implants, tracking devices, etc.).
Look around at how weather patterns have changed, how hurricanes are so much worse, how much of the earth is turning to desert.
Look at the famines and diseases like AIDS that ravage the world.
Look at the anti-Christian activism all over the world. In Europe, once the most zealous continent, less than 5% of the population even attends church now. Islam/terrorism is spreading.
Everything the Dispensational crowd has been predicting for years is happening today. The world is turning more and more against God each day. How long will He allow it to go on?
Response - While this description of the world seems accurate from your perspective, this exact argument has been used by every single generation since the middle ages as evidence that they were near the end of things. In otherwords, there has never been a time since Jesus when the world was not going through famines, droughts, earthquakes, wars, disease (black plague?), and other massive suffering.
But if we read Jesus' words as Apocalyptic descriptions of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple (He employs OT imagery describing the destruction of various nations hundreds of years before), then we won't make the mistake that every successive generation has made in trying to fit current events to these particular images.
Dispensationalist - Ah yes, but the descriptions of how things will be in the Tribulation are completely different from history up to that time. Mark 13:19 "because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now--and never to be equaled again." The wars, persecution, etc. of history have been horrible, but the Tribulation will be Satan's final attempt to wipe all trace of God from the earth.
Response - If Jesus had never spoken in hyperbole, then I could concede this point to you. However, Jesus' frequent use of hyperbole, combined with the already apocalyptic nature of the imagery being used (stars falling from the sky, etc.), combined with the amazing atrocities that Josephus reports as having taken place during the seige in 70 A.D. (Click here for Josephus’ account of the destruction of the Temple and the unheard-of horrors that accompanied it!), it seems much more probable that Jesus is primarily referring to the period between 30-70 A.D....which may, however, in good Biblical prophetic fashion, foreshadow the future time right up until His actual return at the End of the Age.
On Jesus prediction of some being taken and some being “left behind.” - Just like God saved Noah and his family from the wrath that He unleashed upon the rest of the world, so God will Rapture Christians out of the world before the Tribulation. Noah suffered before he entered the ark, but God spared him from the final judgment that the wicked endured. I think it would be against God's love to indiscriminately wipe out all his followers along with the rest of the world.
Response - One cannot take a single example such as Noah, and therefore conclude that God will always spare His people from catastrophic suffering.
He didn't do it for Christians under Domitian's reign.
He hasn’t done it for Christians in Darfur.
He hasn't done it for Christians in China.
He didn't do it during the destruction of the Roman Empire.
And Jesus' words in the Olivet Discourse above seem to teach that if His followers are to avoid such suffering, it is up to them to flee from it and wait for the sign of the Coming of the Son of Man (which they heeded and fled Jerusalem before it was destroyed in 70 A.D.).
Only those who have come out of "the tribulation" (the primary characteristic John chose to use to describe life in Christ in Rev. 1:9) via natural death or martyrdom are finally able to rest forever in the presence of God (see the 5th seal in Revelation as well as the description of God's followers and their ultimate destiny in 7:13-17). The "wiping out" that God's followers will not have to endure will be the one that really counts--when Jesus returns to judge the quick and the dead.
Comments
We are in interesting times that seem to line from an eschatological viewpoint. The underlying message, as always, is to be ready because the bridegroom may come back at any moment.
Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Hey Bob, after waiting at the altar all this time, you would think the flush of youth has left the bride's cheeks and the other super-annuated members of the wedding party still sitting in the pews have VERY full bladders. On the other hand, just think about how much interest has accumulated in the bank accounts of these still-living, 2000-year-old account-holders!
Greetings, Hugh. While I can appreciate the comical value of your sentiment, (seriously, I do) :) I don't think what Jesus was saying was a reference to his 2nd coming. There's a few other debated interpretations ranging from Jesus speaking of his ascension (the greek verb used in the verse can mean coming or going), speaking of the transfiguration in Mat 17:1-14, or possibly even the outpouring of His spirit (Pentecost) Acts 2. I tend to lean towards the first, since he refers to himself as the "Son of Man", which is most likely a direct reference to Daniel 7:13-14 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
Hugh, this is why you should read some of my Biblical theology articles more carefully sometimes. Jesus wasn't talking about His 2nd coming (this is an assumption that many, both Christian and non-Christian, make due to not knowing the context of this passage). Here's what's going on in that passage:
www.examiner.com/x-8276-Methodist-Examiner~y2009m8d14-Jesus-prediction-of-the-Temples-destructionfrom-an-eyewitness-account-Part-1
www.examiner.com/x-8276-Methodist-Examiner~y2009m8d14-Jesus-prediction-of-the-Temples-destructionfrom-an-eyewitness-account-Part-2
www.examiner.com/x-8276-Methodist-Examiner~y2009m8d14-Jesus-prediction-of-the-Temples-destructionfrom-an-eyewitness-account-Part-3
Like I said, even many Christians (many of whom should know better, given their degrees!) miss this. So I don't fault an atheist for misreading it too. :)
Hey there again,
I must say that your premise does not hold the line, ie, your citation of the 30-70AD period: the Olivet Discourse delineates multiple events within the Whole of the Main Subject: Christ's Return.
Given the Sequential Nature of the complete outline given by Jesus in the O.D., the culmination of which would be His Return...we may discount your position by the very fact that Christ did NOT return in 70AD! We are left with a choice: either Christ lied to us in the O.D., or the events He noted have not yet come to pass.
I must add that your response to the technological points raised by your verbal adversary, also do not hold the line: regardless of what people thought in ages past, the technology required to ACHIEVE the level of control necessary for many of the events outline by Jesus in the O.D., did not coming into being until the 20th, and now 21st centuries.
It may be comforting to ascribe a 'they said that before' rationale to the question, but not logic
Interesting points, one and all. Bailey does make the point though about the initial questions - When shall these things be andWhat are the signs of Your coming". We must seperate the answers given into 2 categories-1. Temple's destruction and 2. The signs of His coming along with the end of the world or Age. Verses 5-8 refer to "the beginning of sorrows" (Roman/Jewish wars 66-70 AD). Verses 9-11 could be speaking of a transition period between 70 AD-Domitian thru fall of Rome and scattering of the Jews into Europe and so forth. We must not view OD as simple answers, but as a series of events that are intertwined and reoccuring until final destruction becomes inevitable. Remember, this is a Jewish question and answer session - Christianity IS NOT the focus here-it is a Jewish Messiah that seeks to explain how and why He must return to ascend to the throne of David-Temple destroyed, followers persecuted and martyred, corruption overall are all related events like Noah's day (vs 37-39
JR and Wayne,
Good questions, but I must ask: Where do you get the idea that the disciples are asking anything about Jesus' "return"? They didn't even believe He was leaving at this point, remember. When they ask about His "coming", they are asking about His enthronement as Messiah, which would bring an end to that age and the beginning of the Messianic age. There is nothing in the text that would give the idea that they are asking about, or that Jesus is referring primarily to, a "second coming."
Jesus, in good Hebrew apocalyptic fashion, answers their questions about the Temple (i.e. it would be destroyed) and about His "coming" (i.e. His ascension on the clouds FROM earth TO Heaven, just as Daniel 7 envisions) using OT judgment imagery in a way that would serve as a paradigm/type to illustrate what the final Judgment (i.e. "Day of the LORD") would be like when all is said and done.
And to clarify (because I'm not a Preterist), Jesus DID speak frequently of His second coming, but in the Olivet Discourse, He is not talking about it. He is answering the Disciples questions about the Temple's destruction (the question that prompted the entire conversation to begin with as they left Jerusalem and headed over to the Mount of Olives).
Jesus will come again, and the Olivet Discourse can serve to illustrate what the final judgment may be like when He does return (as Hebrew prophecy is often multifaceted and paradigmatic rather than a simple prediction-fulfillment). But Jesus Himself made it clear that everything He was talking about in the Discourse would happen "before this generation passes away" (that is, in the lifetime of those listening). If we try to make the Olivet Discourse into a roadmap to events yet to come, we declare Jesus to be a false prophet.
For the best overview of this from a gifted NT scholar see "Jesus and the Victory of God" by N.T. Wri
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N.T. Wright.
(Examiner comment box loves to lie about how many characters you have left!)
Jesus' point in OD is that these events are a reoccuring series just as those in Noah's day ignored the signs, so shall the final generation and again, notice that Jesus recreates the "abomination of desolation (Antiochus Epiphanes bringing swine into the Temple and desecrating it in other ways - but as the Hasmonean family (Maccabees) defeated his forces and rightfully restored the Temple, so too will Christ return the future Temple to God. Again, His list of signs refers to the Jewish people and their experiences moreso than to the world alone. And those signs listed must be viewed from a Hebrew sense in definition. Christ's return is to fulfill His role as the Son of David who ultimately saves Israel and mankind from destruction - read verses 34-36 again - they are the key to the puzzle- what does He mean by "this generation shall not pass away till all is fulfilled". Scholars often consider a generation to be 70 years. Blessings!
Where did I get the idea that the disciples thought Jesus was leaving and would return? Good question James. The answer, however, lies Matthew 23, verse 39
"I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'" That is what prompted the entire discussion that we see in Matt. 24 compounded by Jesus' prophecy about the Temple's destruction. The disciples must have wondered how can the people not see Him again - He must be going away-they just probably thought that He meant He was going to "hide" Himself for awhile, not that He was literally leaving.
Wayne, the context of 23 and 24 is the destruction of Jerusalem. I believe you're reading into the passage the notion that the Disciples are asking anything other than "when will the Temple buildings be destroyed? And what will be the sign of your coming into your Kingdom?" To suggest they're asking anything about what we would call the Second Coming just can't be supported by the text exegetically.
Thanks for your comments and good discussion, btw!
Actually James, I think we're saying the same thing, only worded differently. I don't think Matt. 24 is actually talking about the Apocalypse. I think it is referring to the destruction of the Temple and that may signify the "close of the age". As I stated earlier, a generation is often considered to be 70 years, so if that holds true in the OD, then Jesus could not possibly be talking about our time - He was probably talking about the Roman/Jewish Wars from 66-70 A.D., which led up to Masada in 72 A.D. Still, it is a great discussion and interesting thoughts came out of it. Have a blessed Advent season my brother!
Gotcha, Wayne. We're on the same page mostly. Did you read my 3 part article on the OD I posted in the comments below? It's uncanny how well Josephus' description of the Temple's destruction in 70 AD (and the subsequent fighting culminating in the final revolt of Bar Kochba) fits with Jesus' apocalyptic description of conditions that generation would live to see.
Blessings bro,
JM
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