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Prop B

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I woke Friday morning to a text from my brother. The text said:

Two letters to editor - 1 smart and one dumbass re: Prop B.

I smiled to myself knowing the "smart" letter to the editor was clearly someone FOR Prop B even though legislators are currently trying to overturn it in the Missouri House and Senate. And, the "dumbass" letter was clearly someone trying to say breeders would be shut down if a kernel of food was found in a water bowl. Or maybe, that Prop B would mean the government was slowly taking over everything and watch out!! cause next thing you know the government will tell farmers how many cows they can have and then after time the government will tell us what kind of shoes to wear when we go out to eat!

Not a chance. Although there are many animal welfare advocates out there who can't wait until commercial slaughterhouses are put out of business, this has nothing to do with telling Farmer Joe in Harrisonville, how many cows he can have. In fact, Prop B is 100% about puppies - no other animal. So, enough of that argument you anti-Prop B people!

In his letter to the editor on Friday, February 4, Austin Black of Deepwater Missouri, said "limiting breeders to 50 dogs is like limiting the cars a dealer can sell."

Really, Austin? You mean, except that breeders of course feed, water, exercise and vet all of their 50+ dogs. Daily feedings, and exercise and vet care whenever needed. That's what you meant to say. Because, 50 cars on a lot are very comparable to 50 breeding female dogs, a handful of male dogs and hundreds of puppies.

Fifty cars on a lot maybe need to be washed once in awhile? I don't know. I can't imagine the huge amounts of care and attention that would go into that.

Fifty breeding females... let's think about that. Most commercial breeders/puppy mills don't give a rats ass about their dogs - they see $$$ when they look at them. Fifty breeding females plus let's say, ten males (that is extremely conservative) and, because these greedy barabaric human beings only care about money they absolutely breed the females every heat cycle. The average litter may be around eight puppies. That's 8x4 puppies per bitch per year = 32 puppies per ONE breeding female every year. Multiply that by 50, that would be....damn, that's 1600 puppies a YEAR not including the 50+ breeding females and the males... and you think a backyard barbarian can feed, water, exercise, clean and VET all those dogs every year??

And you're comparing a breeder to a car lot. Wow.

Under Prop B's regulations, a commercial breeder would be limited to 1600 puppies a year. And we think that is too restrictive? I feel nauseus.

Comments

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    To me that is a very degrading piece of work... the "Most commercial breeders/puppy mills don't give a rats ass about their dogs - they see $$$ when they look at them." comment makes me sick... they can't breed a sick dog and expect to get decent babies. If they babies aren't taken care of they won't sell...

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    But they don't get decent babies. The BBB wrote a scathing report about the puppy mills in Missouri because so many owners have complained about puppy mill puppies--genetic problems, diseases based on lack of care and overcrowding.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Yeah the BBB report was so scathing. http://stlouis.bbb.org/Storage/142/Documents/Puppy%20Mills%20study.pdf

    I wonder how much the HSUS paid the BBB to make such an ass of themselves. They claim that Missouri Breeders. (Now they did not define if the breeders were licensed or what) in a 3 years timeperiod had 352 complaints..Yes 352 complaint in a 3 years time.. With half of those complaints resolved. The HSUS claims Missouri sells 1 million puppies a year to other states across the nation. I am not a math genius the percentage of 3 million out of 176 complaints is what percentage???? What other industry has such high ratings??? That BBB BS was written so idiots like you can post vague post like you have and the reader goes OMG there is a problem lets fix it lets, ban all those nasty deplorable puppy mills.. If the BBB can only come up with 176 customers in three years out of three million puppies sold .I would say Missouri has some damn good breeders.. I wonder what the BBB ratings are for other states are. Shame on the BBB and shame on people like you.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    What the BBB report stated is that dog breeders, unlike most businesses, have a poor track record of handling complaints.

    The BBB complaints talk about puppies dying after being bought, and registration papers not being provided when they were promised.

    The report also mentioned how the existing laws and inspections are not handling the problems--breeders oftentimes take advantage of the gaps in the law. And the penalties are not severe enough.

    The BBB also looked at randomly found dog buying contracts on the internet and found them to be insufficient, favoring only the seller.

    The BBB also found that those selling puppies through the internet or other medium won't allow the buyers to pick up the puppies at the breeder's location. They talk about meeting in parking lots.

    It also talks about the world's biggest puppy brokers and the fact that it doesn't always buy from unlicensed breeders.

    Finally, the BBB demonstrates that Missouri's system is poor compared to other states.

    "The lack of more vigorous enforcement of the laws and regulations has allowed many breeders to continue operating substandard kennels as the case of Tim King Jr. amply illustrates. The lack of aggressiveness in penalizing breeders for violations of the law would seem to contribute to a laissez-faire attitude toward regulations on the part of breeders."

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Females only come in heat twice a year on average. Learn your facts! Most do not breed every year and many, many, many have an average of 2 puppies a litter, unless you are breeding big dogs and their heat cycles tend to be spaced further out. There is an occasional female that comes in heat more than twice a year, but that is pretty rare. Breeders that want healthy puppies they can sell take care of their stock or they will not be in business very long at all.

  • Cait 3 years ago

    I have a question about the photo. It says that it's from your personal collection, but I'm wondering if those are your dogs, a friends dogs, a breeder you personally know? Where was the photo taken? Is it a small breeder or one licensed with the Missouri Department of Ag? I can't take the article and a photo with with no indication of where the photo was taken or what it truly is.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    It is outrageous that the Examiner would allow such ignorant lies to be published. Sarah knows absolutely NOTHING about the subject. Good grief! Female dogs couldn't possibly come into heat and breed four times per year. 8 pups per litter average? Impossible. Breeders care more for dogs than you do, obviously. You don't care enough to even look up the facts.
    I am sick of breeders being slandered by ignorant people who are literate enough to get published for their two minutes of fame, but their article is composed totally of lies and slander. What ever happened to truthfulness in journalism?
    You talk about the 50 dog limit. It is fifty breeding dogs total, not 50 females plus males. If this is any example of the ignorance that passed Prop B, our legislators need to REPEAL NOW.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    No, what the representatives need to do is pay attention to the people. They can either do so now, or the next time they come up for re-election.

    There's no room in this state for special interests overriding the will of the people. Definitely no room to do so in the interest of preserving cruelty to dogs.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    First off, people who depend on the income they get from raising any animal know that they must take very good care of all of the animals under their care or they will NOT turn a profit.
    Secondly, what Austin was trying to say is that when you try to limit the number of breeding dogs, cars, etc.... you limit the amount of income that person can make. We live in a what is suppose to be a FREE country and NO ONE has the right to limit the number of anything I own. I do think that it is possible to have more than 50 dogs and take care of them properly.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    And other business regulations limit those businesses ability to make a profit, too. So are you advocating then that the State of Missouri remove all business regulations? Or do you feel that commercial dog breeders are exempt from new business regulations?

    No limits on how many you own -- business requirements you have to meet to still be licensed and legal in Missouri.

    If you want to own more dogs, spay or neuter over 50 and keep as pets. If that doesn't hit a restriction for number of pets in your community.

    Speaking of which, in St. Louis county, you can't own more than three dogs as pets.

    No, as people testified at the hearings (the ones not held during a snow storm), people who have experience with bad breeders have found that the more dogs a breeder has, the less care the dogs get.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Dog Breeding is already regulated Shelley and you know it.. Our ATT General should press charges against your people for deceiving the public costing tax payers all the money you cost with your lies. How many times is your master HSUS going to push more regulation so they can play help the puppy mill dogs give us money game???? Defining the term puppy mill will end it.. doing real data collecting studies on where shelter dogs come from will end that too

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Well, we know THIS ONE is the dumbass one!
    "greedy barabaric human beings only care about money". How dare you claim to know how dog breeders feel about their dogs! What is wrong with you? You must have so much hate inside to project your screwed up feelings upon dog breeders. You must be the one fixated on money.
    You spout off about things you obviously know nothing about and don't understand at all. Your ignorance is appalling and your knowledge of Prop B leaves you with NO credibility. You really should have shut your mouth before you proved your stupidity.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    And this is why I would never allow anonymous comments. People without the courage to say such things under their own names.

  • anonymous 3 years ago

    I am insulted by your statement: Most commercial breeders/puppy mills don't give a rats ass about their dogs - they see $$$ when they look at them.
    Do you know any state-licensed breeders personally? You presume to know how breeders feel about their dogs. Well, you are wrong, as you are about most of your other statements. Successful dog breeders love their dogs. How can they not? Dogs just have a way of getting to your heart. Do you not know this? Maybe YOU don't love dogs. Have you read Prop B or just relied on other radical animal rights activists to provide your ammunition to attack good breeders?
    If the rest of the Kansas City voters are anything like you and know nothing about breeding dogs or about what Prop B says, heaven help us all! Our legislators need to repeal this mess you voted in.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    I immediately get annoyed by people like her. People who believe what they hear and don't research or try to educate themselves. People who continue to talk about issues like they know what they're talking about and they couldn't be more ignorant on the topic.
    Does that sound familiar? It is from another of your articles, but very appropriate about YOU and this subject!

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Your other article about Prop B is full of lies, as well. These are LIES, not just a difference of opinion. Provable LIES. You need to find another line of work and leave the writing to someone who researches the subject and doesn't tell outrageous lies!

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    Leave the writing to anonymous commenters who can't even piece together a complete sentence, such as yourself?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    I just realized that this is just an animal rights publication. I guess that allows you to tell outrageous outright LIES about Prop B and the already licensed dog breeders it puts out of business. Is this the class of people who are drawn to the business of rescue and sheltering? Heaven help the poor animals!

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    I used to think that animal rights people were trying to help the animals. They are just radicals that want to end all domestic life, and are quite hateful. Keep your nose out of my life and I will keep mine out of yours. We have horses, chickens, cows, and dogs and we will keep them. You have no rights to them.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    If you're a farmer, yes we do have rights in what you do with your animals. You can't pollute streams; you can't have too many animals in your CAFO, or not maintain your property; you can't abuse and mistreat the animals.

    You can't use unsanitary conditions. You can't sell sick animals for food.

    Farmers, like other businesses, face restrictions.

    As for hate filled -- pot calling kettle, here?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    What kind of life must these radical animal rights activists have that leaves them so hate-filled and angry? I wonder if they are suffering from an animal protein deficiency or just a lack of human compassion. Something wrong with these nuts that focus their total life intruding on other peoples' lives.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    Do you have anything intelligent to say? Or are you just mouthing words because you maybe eat too much protein, and it's made you aggressive?

    People wanting to keep dogs from a cruel life aren't radicals--they're caring human beings. Try being one sometime.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Wow Commercial breeders just see money??? Hum.. If Breeding puppies for the wholesale market were so dam lucrative.. I guarantee you.. This conversation would not be happening. The reason why the commercial breeder is under such grotesque and un-American attack,, Is because it is not a profitable venture. It has not been for years. One would be lucky to etch out half of minimum wage. REAL studies prove and this is documented. That the average amount of dogs kept by commercial breeders is in the average of less then 70. The very few bigger kennels with more then 70 make very meager profits.. They do so by the numbers. numbers that would never be accomplished if their dogs were sick, unhappy, and abused. A female dog can abort just because she is not comfortable with her environment. This is a proven fact. A dog not fed proper diet will not produce viable puppies. A dog starved housed in a bread box living in waste without proper food or water. WILL NOT PRODUCE VIABLE PUPPIES. Dogs do not eat saw dust. Dogs do not breed more then 2 times a year most the time it is just 1 time. A so called over bred dog will not produce viable puppies.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    The photo Sarah is using is extremely old. It has been generated on the Animal rights activist web sites for many years. Photos like that are reused over and over again. Most so called bust will have no photos so they reuse a photo like this. There will not have a caption that the photo is associated with the kennel. Just the photo attached to the story. leading the reader into assuming the photo was of that particular Kennel. Just like the Oprah show. She also had many of the same reused photos these Radical use to trick the public. Stir emotions to rally the public to beg for change and end the abuse.
    Most of the real bad abusive photos and video coverage. Are from the 1950's Real footage taken when the Animal Welfare Act was being formed. That was back when kennels first became regulated. Now a place like the one in the picture shown. Is completely illegal and considered abuse. Abuse that already is a criminal action.
    Missouri State inspectors would close that place down in a nano second.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    The photo is of a puppy mill. What does it matter when it was taken?

    I can't believe how weak so many of these arguments are. Isn't there anyone with any intelligence on the pro-puppy mill side?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    These Animal rights activist extremist. Have become so caught up in their goals.They do not care if they lie, cheat, steal or commit a crime. They believe their own lies. And feel they are actually saving animals. When in fact they are just sad pawns used by radical extremist groups. Groups labeled domestic terrorist by our own Government. It is very sad to use Animal lovers in such a way. Using their passion to destroy what they really love. What is happening today . Is not new . Hitler and his army did the same exact thing back when he was assuming power. Hitler was also a self proclaimed vegan. Hitler also believed vivisection had to be outlawed. Mein Kampf is a book used by these radicals to change public opinion . It is shocking how it has been working. It should be a harsh lesson .. Demand Prop B to be repealed. It was voted in under extremely deceptive and un-American practices.. A criminal investigation into the proponents of Prop B is a must. To prevent such happenings in the future.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    This is clearly an example that Examiner is only a collection of personal blogs in which citizen "journalists" can editorialize at will. So much for credibility.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    When I first came here, I thought it was a legitimate online 'newspaper'. What a joke. It is a bunch of ugly haters stirring up like-minded idiots to rail against legitimate people who actually care for their animals. I wouldn't want Ms. Estlund taking care of a pet rat! She know less than nothing about animal husbandry, journalism, or real life.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    The photo Sarah is using is extremely old. It has been generated on the Animal rights activist web sites for many years. Photos like that are reused over and over again. Most so called busts will have no photos so they reuse a photo like this. They will not have a caption that the photo is associated with the kennel, just the photo attached to the story, leading the reader ro assume the photo was of that particular Kennel. Just like the Oprah show. She also had many of the same reused photos that these Radicals use to trick the public. They stir emotions to rally the public to beg for change and end the abuse.
    Most of the real bad abusive photos and video coverage are from the 1950's, real footage taken when the Animal Welfare Act was being formed. That was back when kennels first became regulated. Now a place like the one in the picture shown is completely illegal and considered abuse….abuse that already is a criminal action.
    Missouri State inspectors would close that place down in a nano-second.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    These Animal rights activist extremist have become so caught up in their goals. They do not care if they lie, cheat, steal or commit a crime. They believe their own lies and feel they are actually saving animals, when in fact they are just sad pawns used by radical extremist groups. These groups are labeled domestic terrorist by our own government. It is very sad to use animal lovers in such a way…using their passion to destroy what they really love. What is happening today is not new. Hitler and his army did the same exact thing back when he was assuming power. Hitler was also a self proclaimed vegan. Hitler also believed vivisection had to be outlawed. Mein Kampf is a book used by these radicals to change public opinion. It is shocking how it has been working. It should be a harsh lesson. Demand Prop B to be repealed. It was voted in under extremely deceptive and un-American practices. A criminal investigation into the proponents of Prop B is a must, to prevent such happenings in the future.

  • Profile picture of shelleyp
    shelleyp 3 years ago

    So how much did you get paid by HumaneWatch for your comment?

    Hitler was a vegan!? What an idiotic, stupid thing to say.

    Every heard of a thing called Godwin's Law? Look it up before you prove without a doubt to the world that you are a fool.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Insulting piece of trash written by an obviously unbalanced and incredibly ignorant activist without a brain in her head. How on earth can she believe the lies she is telling. Yeah, 1600 pups from 50 dogs? Are you on crack?

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    I have been to a puppy mill, I have been to several puppy mills and every single thing I said is true.

    There are most certainly breeders who breed their females every single heat single. There are most certainly breeders who have heinous and neglectful "breeding" facilities. I never said ALL but I stand by my article that yes, commercial breeders I have come into contact with ONLY care about $$ do NOT care about the animals.

    Are you people kidding me that breeders only care about healthy puppies?? Have you read the research (yes research I am not making this up as your purport above) regarding the huge number of PetLand puppies who end up with parvo?

    Until you all have seen what I have seen, I will just assume you are breeders who are upset because people who care about animals want to make sure you take care of them.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    And why is it any of your business how we take care of OUR animals? We don't intrude into YOUR life, demanding you follow ridiculous rules, including going to JAIL for a dirty water bowl or treating a minor wound or 'cold' yourself instead of rushing your dog to the vet. Law enforcement will turn into the doggie police, hauling breeders off to jail if they have 51 instead of 50 dogs. What a horrible crime that is!

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    Why is everyone posting annonymous? If you're proud of YOUR opinions, why don't you come forward and stand proud? I have access to your information but why not let everyone else know who you are?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    So you really believe that female dogs come into heat four times per year? And average 8 puppies per litter? And can possible produce 32 puppies in a year? And that Prop B allows 50 females plus males?
    Where do you get your information?

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    I was incorrect when I wrote that females come into heat 4x/year. The correct number would be 2-3 and yes, Prop B allows 50 breeding females. That does not include the other dogs the breeder may have. And yes, the average litter size is 6-8 dogs.

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    (From USA Today)
    Proposition B, which would take effect in a year, will beef up Missouri's existing laws by restricting commercial breeders to no more than 50 female dogs for breeding, increasing the size of dogs' living spaces and by requiring commercial breeders to have their dogs examined yearly by a veterinarian.

    The measure, which applies to operators with more than 10 breeding dogs, also requires the animals to be fed daily and not be bred more than twice every 18 months. Breeders also must house animals indoors with unfettered access to an outdoor exercise yard.

    All of the hateful comments aside, how can anyone disagree with the parameters of Prop B?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    So since you have seen a couple of bad kennels, you generalize and label MOST commercial dogs breeders as puppymills, greedy, barbaric human beings, backyard barbarians. Exactly how many legal, licensed breeding kennels have you personally seen? There are 1390 licensed kennels, and you feel comfortable calling MOST of those inspected kennels you have never seen greedy barbaric puppymills?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    You need to actually read Prop B instead of relying on misinformation printed in USA today. They are wrong, and so are you. Prop B limits to 50 breeding dogs period.

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    What are you talking about? Yes, Prop B limits to 50 breeding dogs. I never said otherwise. I feel confident regarding my knowledge of Prop B, I worked on the campaign. Straight from Prop B:

    2010 Initiative Petitions Approved for Circulation in MissouriStatutory Amendment to Chapter 273, Relating to Dog Breeders2010-085, Version 1

    THE PROPOSED STATUTE

    4. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may have custody of more than fifty covered dogs for the purpose of breeding those animals and selling any offspring for use as a pet.

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    The puppy mill - er - commercial breeder we went to WAS licensed.

  • anonymous 3 years ago

    So you have actually seen one licensed breeding kennel? Was it one in compliance, or being shut down? So the other 1389 are 'just like that one'?

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    Having raised dogs professionaly for over 40 years, I can tell you that I have NEVER had a female dog produce more than two litters in any twelve month period. NEVER known anyone else who has ever had a dog produce more than two litters per year. Six month cycles are considered a minimum. Many dogs cycle every eight to ten months. Bassenjis cycle ever 12 months. Your research is faulty. When you get your information from people who have never raised dogs or read a book about breeding, you end up looking foolish. Where do you get your average 6-8 pups per litter? Some large breed dogs may average 6, but when you make general statements such as you have, you need to average all dog breeds. That would be more in the neighborhood of 4 puppies per litter. I can't even fathom your 1600 pups per year for a breeder who has 50 female dogs. That is ludicrous.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    You didn't say this? "
    Fifty breeding females plus let's say, ten males (that is extremely conservative) and, because these greedy barabaric human beings only care about money they absolutely breed the females every heat cycle.
    Lol, changed your mind, did you? YOU SAID 50 FEMALE dogs besides males.

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    No I didn't change my mind. 50 breeding dogs meaning, 50 breeding females BECAUSE the Dept. of Ag. inspectors look for females used for breeding when at the puppy mill. Breeders oftentimes have dogs running around - their own personal dogs, etc.

  • Profile picture of Sarah Estlund
    Sarah Estlund 3 years ago

    How many puppies are in the average litter?

    The average size of a litter is generally 6 to 10 puppies. The number of puppies in a litter often varies with the size of the dog. Smaller dogs tend to have smaller litters.

    http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=921
    (one of many resources I use)

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    50 breeding dogs meaning, 50 breeding females BECAUSE the Dept. of Ag. inspectors look for females used for breeding when at the puppy mill. Breeders oftentimes have dogs running around - their own personal dogs, etc.
    OMG, you are sounding less and less sane. I have to go back to my original thoughts. You are an idiot who knows nothing about the subject. You lie even when the truth would do you more good!

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    And you know how that MODA inspectors 'look for females used for breeding when at the puppy mill'? Have you ever seen an inspector at a kennel inspecting?
    "Breeders oftentimes have dogs running around - their own personal dogs, etc." Well they are ALL our OWN PERSONAL DOGS. We bought them or bought their parents and raised them. Whose do you think they are? Yours? We pay to feed them, house them, vet them, groom them, etc. Yet animal rights activists want to micromanage our buinesses. If they are so interested in them, maybe they would like to help clean up after them, groom them, walk them, and fluff their pillows.

  • Anonymous 3 years ago

    FYI, the inspectors count the dogs every inspection, but they don't turn them upside to make sure they are boys or girls. They count heads, not private parts.

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