Below we will reprint a conversation between this examiner and a Catholic on the issue of the Rosary. It came about due to an image of prayer beads from the Catholic, Baha'i, Islam and Buddhism all of which are for the purpose of facilitating repetitive prayer.
What ought to be noteworthy is that my statements are based on that which the Bible states (complete with quotations and citations) whilst the Catholic’s statements are based on allusions to the Bible premised upon her personal preferences. In other words, if she wants to do something then she will and does not care about that which the Bible states.
Often, Bible believers demand to know just where the Bible states this and that Catholic belief and forget, or do not know, that Catholicism is not premised upon that which the Bible states. Rather, it is premised upon the pseudo apostolic oral tradition, the saying of Popes, “saints” and apparitions of “Mary,” and picking and choosing from the writings of the church father and the Bible.
In short, for the Catholic; the Bible is not the sole rule of faith but the church is which is what sola scriptura vs. sola ecclesia is all about.
In the words of Catholic apologist and Director of the Catholic apologetics organization Catholic Answers, Karl Keating:
…where is the proof [of the Assumption] from Scripture? Strictly, there is none. It was the Catholic Church that was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly. The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as something definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.
—Catholic and Fundamentalism, The Attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1988), p. 273
Get the point? The Assumption is required to be accepted by “the faithful” for salvation ever since it became a dogma in 1950 AD. There is no proof from scripture but it does not matter because the Catholic church believes it, he believes it so, by folly, it must be true—and their salvation depends on accepting it (but only since 1950 AD which means that they have changed the gospel).
Since we have covered the issue of referring to Mary as the Queen of Heaven in detail we will here simply mention that this being, a fake, false, pseudo Mary, appears to really and actually be the spirit which is over the Catholic church—the spirit which keeps her blind to the true gospel.
For those who do not know, the Queen of Heaven is found in the Bible—it is an idol which YHVH Himself calls abominable, and Catholics choose to refer to Mary as such.
In Jeremiah ch. 7 we find that YHVH states, “children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes for the queen of heaven, while libations are poured to strange gods in order to hurt. Is it I whom they hurt, says the LORD; is it not rather themselves, to their own confusion?...They have defiled the house which bears my Name by setting up their abominable idols.”
Then in Jeremiah ch. 44 YHVH sends Jeremiah to preach against this evil and to command the people to stop worshipping that idol—the Queen of Heaven. Yet, “all the people…said to Jeremiah, ‘We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.’ The women added, ‘When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”
Both chapters are well worth reading in whole in this regard. In short, the message is clear: we will not listen to YHVH because when we disobey Him and worship false goddesses in idolatrous manners things go well for us.
Keep that in mind as you read that which follows. Keep in mind that I had noted that the four religions all practice repetitive prayer. I also noted that when Jesus was specifically asked about how we should pray He stated, “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words” (Matthew 6:7). Lastly, I noted that one ought not to fall for the Catholic talking point about repetitive prayer; they claim that it is perfectly acceptable as long as you are purposeful about it. In other words, they claim that what Jesus was saying was to just not do it in vain. Yet, of course, what makes it vain is the fact that it is repetitive as “they think that they will be heard for their many words.”
Here was the Catholic’s reply:
The repetitive prayers in the rosary allow the one prayer to enter a deep, calming, trance-like state in which one is better suited for meditation, reflection and worship.
In other words, one cannot fully commune with the Holy Spirit when the troubles of the world weigh heavily on one's mind. The rosary helps empty the head of stress.
No kidding, this is an exact quote and an utterly perfect example as to why the Rosary is the exact sort of prayer again which Jesus warned us. The Rosary is repetitive and so causes a “trance-like state” but one whereby a person is not better suited for prayer or Biblical “meditation” (which is contemplating YHVH and His word) but New Age, mystical meditation which is emptying one’s mind, one’s self so that someone or, rather, something else can take over.
To learn details about just what the Rosary is, exactly, see:
At this point, someone in the comment section (in which this discussion ensued) stated:
...which is precisely what God said *not* to do. Matthew 6:8 isn't going away because you prefer tradition over sound Biblical doctrine.
In other words, one can fully commune with the Holy Spirit when the troubles of the world weigh heavily on one's mind. The rosary—may—help empty the head of stress but Jesus said, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).
So? How can you come to Jesus when you have the stress of the outside world weighing heavily on your mind?
Someone else noted something that, inevitably, comes up in such discussions which is, “The message is not about praying for the same thing” and also noted:
We do that by meditating on Jesus' words not to worry. There are various statements re worry that one can meditate on to calm one's mind, after which the Comforter (Holy Spirit) is quick to bring peace and reassurance. The peace is received through faith in the unchanging and steadfast truth of His words i.e. wherein do we place our faith.
And someone else noted:
Praying for tradition is very different then praying for something over and over. I pray for the same thing most times I pray, for the salvation of my family. I believe God hears me and encourages me to keep them on my mind however praying the same words would become habit and therefore meaningless in my heart.
I believe God tells us to give Him our troubles, to pray when things are weighing on our minds because He wants to help us. If we empty our minds of troubles before we start praying then we risk falling in to the trap of trying to do things on our own. God wants everything, the good stuff and bad.
At this point all others dropped out of the conversation and it was left to the Catholic and I.
Thus, I stated:
[name removed], the Bible states, "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16 ). Through Jesus, and Jesus alone, we are direct access to the very throne of YHVH.
The Catholic replied:
Scripture also says judge not lest ye be judged. I don't think it's your place to cast judgment upon me for the means I and many others use (repetitive chant) to put us in a state of mind for deeper meditation. It obviously works to put Catholics in the right state of mind for deeper meditation and communion with The Lord Jesus. Why are you upset that I have found a way to effectively communicate with the Holy Spirit?
My reply was:
Actually, I was not saying anything: Jesus was.
Also, are you judging me as being judgmental, then judging me for being judgmental and judging judgmentalism as being wrong? You are actually functioning based off of a misconception; you may want to read this: Judgmentalism
I figure if praying repetitively was good enough for Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, then I'm comfortable coming to the Lord while meditating with the rosary. If he listened to the widow who prayed repetitively for vindication, then I take comfort in knowing that he hears my pleas, too.
Oh, I see. You are confusing two issues. Repetitive pray is mantra-like continuous repetition in one sitting. Then there is praying about the same thing over and over again day after day. Of course, in Gethsemane Jesus was praying to God, to the Father whilst within the rosary you are praying to Mary. In the Bible there are there are only two sorts of prayer: prayer to God and prayer to false gods: there is nothing else. Thus, the rosary is of the sort that Jesus told us not to do and is not praying to God.
The Catholic then turned to a bit of Catholic-Jesuit doublespeak aka Jesuit dialectic which is to affirm and deny all at the same them (Yes/But Theology):
Catholics don't pray to Mary. We ask her to pray for us.
My reply was:
When you "ask her" you are praying to her. Also, you are ignoring the fact that the Bible states " Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16 ). Therefore, you do not need Mary, Joseph or any saint to pray for you. Jesus made the way for you to come before God yourself.
The Catholic retort was another Catholic talking point:
So, by that reasoning, when a friend asks me to pray for her, then that friend is praying to me. Interesting.
By the way, I can't think of a bolder way to come to the throne of grace than to have Mary, the Mother of Christ and/or the communion of saints standing with me -spiritually speaking - in prayer.
My reply, which went unanswered so that the discussion thus ended, was:
Surely, you can discern, at least, one big difference between Mary, you and your friends. You and your friends are within this earthly realm whilst she is not.
The Bible tells us earth dwellers to pray for each other (James 5:1) but never to pray to or otherwise or in any way contact anyone outside and beyond the earthly realm with the exception of God alone.
Who better than Mary to “come boldly”? You. That is what the Bible says.
"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:15-16).
Jesus said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).
Mary said this about Jesus, "Whatever He says to you, do it" (John 2:5).
So, there you have it: the Bible’s very clear teachings versus the Catholic “trance-like state…meditation” and the Catholic will not give up on it because it feels good, it works and so, by golly, it must be of god. Well, it is of god but it is of the “god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).