When I came across Ken Bakeman's alien encounter stories I just knew I had to interview him on Examiner. Not to mention I also scheduled him to appear on my radio show The Church of Mabus later in the year. There is such a uniqueness to his stories revolving around a fine detail that is rare to come by. His book "The Verges A Chronicle of Alien Encounters" is a must read for any experiencer or UFO enthusiast. He most assuredly is a gentleman who has been through a lot when it comes to the high strange. Someone I can relate to on many levels from my own experiences. Except he seems to remember everything it would seem. I seem to have a block that needs to be catapulted into smithereens still. I hope you find this interview informative. Presenting.
1. Could you tell us your prime motivation in creating your book The Verges A Chronicle of Alien Encounters? And what does Verges mean exactly?
KB: The Verges is the result of what outwardly began in 1993 when I started to make a list of strange and seemingly inexplicable events that had taken place in my life. The impulse to make this list — get something down in writing — became overwhelmingly strong a few months after I was in a horrible automobile accident. I think the trauma of this accident pried open the lid of my subconscious, or at least poked a few holes in it, and over the span of the next few years I began to remember more and more strange events that I had been involved in. As ridiculous as it may sound these involved 'missing time' episodes, 'UFOs' and 'alien' beings. I wrote down bits and pieces of what I was able to remember and filed the notes away, meanwhile trying to get on with my 'normal' life. By 2008 I had accumulated enough written accounts to form a small book, which I self published. I think the main motivation for me to write things down at this time was to get a load off my chest — to externalize the previously locked up weird memories — and begin the long process of sorting it out and integrating what had happened to me into my awake-state psyche.
Recently, I've made an expanded version of the original book and this is the 2012 edition titled The Verges: A Chronicle of Alien Encounters. In this new edition, some five years after the first writing, I was encouraged — actually prodded — by some of my, shall I say 'acquaintances on the other side'?, to republish and include discussions after the accounts. The discussions take a more free-form approach to review the material and try to view it in a larger context. I wasn't ready for this back in 2008. So in the 2012 edition of The Verges the project had evolved from just spilling my guts about extremely strange experiences as a form of therapy to start the daunting task of putting things into perspective, trying to connect the dots, and beginning to see the patterns which emerge, whatever they may be. My motivation at this point is to move beyond just remembering, and move towards understanding.
The title, The Verges, is based on a standard dictionary definition of 'verge'. It is a frontier or boundary. It is the extreme edge of a territory. In other words, The Verges are the outer limits. They are also, from my perspective, intersections and thresholds between multiple dimensional realms, ranging from the chthonic hypo-dimensional region(s) to the terrestrial level and then through a spectrum of energetic expressions of creation which like the ouroboros complete a circuit.
2. Would you tell us about your first initial encounter with aliens that started all of this origins wise?
KB: As a very young child I had OBE experiences with what I call the 'Others' who I think are a type of light being. This was in a period when I was having a hard time adjusting to being in a physical body. These guys encouraged me to stick with my commitment to be on Earth in a human body. I think this applies to fulfilling a soul contract. My first contact experience with what might be called 'aliens' seems to have been when I was almost three years old. I was abducted by a trio of Grays and taken up to what I thought of as a round boat in the sky. Inside the 'boat' there were four pale-skinned bug-eyed creatures wearing white robes and they seemed to be evaluating me. This is how it started out in this physical life experience for me — an evaluation for suitability by what I thought of as ugly angels and eventually, in the coming years, I was recruited for service in a variety of assignments.
3. You seem to have a lot of Reptilian encounters. What are your perspectives on the Reptilians exactly as far as their background and agenda?
KB: This is a huge and unwieldy subject and I can only offer some perspectives based on my own limited set of experiences. The truth is at this time I don't consciously know the whole picture and of course this is very frustrating, but oh well . . . But based on what I've been able to recall up to this point I know that there are several types — I suspect clans, because territoriality is a factor — of what generically and perhaps inappropriately have been called 'Reptilian' beings. There doesn't appear to be a monolithic block or a specific species or genus in this regard. I've had personal encounters with some Reptilians that seem rather snake-like with long tails, others with an unmistakable bipedal dinosaurian configuration with a thick, tail that almost drags, some with toad-like skin and greenish-brown-tan camouflage patterning with little or no tail and some with a crocodile-like head, body and belly scute patterning and pigmentation and a medium-long tail. The skin pigmentation ranges from albino to cream-yellow to camaflauge-like patterns to a drab shade of Army green usually with a lighter tone for the chest and belly. In short, what I have seen regarding Reptilians is a wide range of types that do not seem to fit into a single taxonomic identification.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "background". If you are thinking about where the Reptilians come from my answer is, I don't know for sure. For a while I thought they might be crypto-indigenous creatures, in other words some form of Animalia native to Earth that has gone into hiding for one reason or another. At this stage I don't think this satisfies all the variables involved. I believe that at least some of these creatures that appear in a bipedal, reptile-like physiology are a modification or 'upgrade' — hybridized with human DNA and who knows what else — of ancestral or relic beings. This is definitely seems to be the case for the albino 'Draco' rulers who probably from inbreeding (similar to Akhenaten and Tutankhamen) have difficulty walking because of leg and foot deformities. But I think it's important to also think in terms what sort of consciousness is invested in the physical bodies of the Reptilians. In this regard I believe that we are dealing at least to some extent with chthonic entities, which I refer to as hypo-dimensionals that essentially are parasitic beings dependent on the living to animate/reanimate them.
The second part of your question is about what the Reptilian agenda is. I think it revolves around three factors. The first concerns gaining life force from humans. This is vital energy: chi, ka, ashe, prana and so on. The second is mixing human genetic material with what I call raw-stock or ancestral species. In my experiences these were bipedal dinosaur-like animals that come both from off planet and from ranches in remote areas on Earth where they are raised. In 1984 I was forcibly taken to one of these ranches hidden away in the Modoc Plateau of northern California. The third component concerns seeding cultures on Earth to suite the Reptilian's passions and pleasures — and I might add, their energetic diet. This last part connects to major religions and art, architecture, symbolism and rituals that they have generated.
4. Do you think there are positive Reptilian experiences. I have had what I would call positive Reptilian experiences. I felt nothing but love and acceptance. I do not subscribe to labeling an entire race evil based on speculation like a lot of people do in the conspiracy circles. Sure there probably are evil Reptilians like there are evil Humans. But I refuse to accept all Reptilians are sinister. What do you think about this?
KB: Based on what I've observed 'Reptilians' are very intelligent (some noticeably more so than others) and they know how to psychically manipulate humans. In one case I was abducted by an alligator-like Reptilian and he treated me very affectionately like I was his beloved pet. In the mean time he was draining my life force and transferring it to his body. They, at least some types, can turn on the charm if they want to but I think their motives are highly questionable. I'm aware that some people have reported positive experiences with Reptilians. My thoughts about this are divided; on one hand I suppose this may be the case for some people but on the other hand I can't help to not wonder if the 'positive' event was a set up or psychically induced memory. I apologize for sounding so downbeat here but it's based on dozens of contact experiences I've had with Reptilians. Another thing to keep in mind is that there isn't just one type of Reptilian, as I have mentioned above. I've encountered five or six distinct types along with variations on these. There is a corresponding variety of personalities associated with the different types, ranging from viscous and condescending (the 'Draco' albino type) all the way to emotional and oddly poetic (some of the crocodile-like types). My 'Reptilian' handler even had a quirky sense of humor, although rarely displayed. So Jeffrey, I think it is perfectly reasonable to consider that not all beings who are lumped together in the grab-bag nomenclature of 'Reptilian' are sinister.
5. Why do you think all of these encounters have happened to you and for what purpose?
KB: This gets back to the subject of soul contracts and arrangements made before birth. I talk about this in some of the discussions in my book, The Verges. The short answer is that as a 'discarnate' I agreed to perform certain services in exchange for what I considered to be suitable conditions, obviously along with some rewards. The problem is that what may look like a good deal from the 'other side' doesn't always pan out too well down on terra firma. Also, the soul contract goal posts, so to speak, seemed in my case to be rather shifty and ever elusive. I got suckered into providing more and more services to the Grays. Eventually, by the beginning of 1996, I managed to break free, relatively speaking. Another level of viewing this, however, is that I'm what might be described as a soul traveler. (I don't see myself as a 'star seed'.) I'm sort of a free lance soul looking for some adventure and of course Earth is a highly desirable location for all sorts of mischief.
6. How do you tell the difference between aliens and lets say government black ops? Have you had any outside government agencies mess with you during your encounters? I lean towards drones a lot with UFOs now and black ops hi jinks. Not to rule out all ET encounters. But how do you tell the difference these days?
KB: First off I think that the U.S. government has been under 'alien' control to a significant extent since the inception of this country. Of course I can't prove this. But I know from my own experiences, especially between 1982 and my last remembered contact experience in 1996, that U.S. military personnel have been involved both with the Grays and in some cases Reptilians. Also, my Reptilian handler worked in conjunction with the U.S. military in some jobs I was drawn into. I was surprised to see human military working in very close proximity to little 4' tall (if even that) Grays back in 1982 somewhere near Lawrence Livermore Labs in California. I'll tell you one thing, everybody on this job acted like the Grays were gods. In 1990 I was went through a strange evaluation involving a class 1 type Reptilian — they look just like bipedal dinos except they're only about 7' tall. Along with the Reptilian, who obviously was in charge, were some humans wearing black clothing. The upshot of this was that I got hooked up with a black ops division of the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary. But back to your original question; I'm just not in a position to give you a specific answer about making a delineation between purely human clandestine operations and those that involve 'aliens', such as the Grays. What I do know, however, is that 'aliens' interface with regular branches of the U.S. military.
Not quite sure what you mean by "outside government agencies". If you are referring to MiB, then the answer is yes, several times, except it was either before or after the incidences. If you are thinking about MILAB type events then that's a possibility and one that I don't especially want to remember right now. It brings up some disturbing images in my mind. Fake aliens were used in those abductions. I do remember one time late in 1995 when I went outdoors with my puppy late at night and heard the loud sound of helicopter blades — but, there was no helicopter in sight, not any lights either. I think it was intimidation, and this was at a time when I was becoming consciously aware of my history of abductions, etc. The last thing that the Reptilians, Grays and several other types want is for their human resources to become consciously aware of what's been done to them. Remembering and becoming fully conscious allows for people like me who have been subjected to trauma-based mind control to regain sovereignty of the soul. In my case there was some rather vituperous response to my breaking free, along with some psychic attacks that had temporarily harmful physical consequences.
7. Would you share a story of some of your experiences from your book with us? Perhaps one that you find to be the most bone chilling or significant or both?
KB: The following is an excerpt from an account of an abduction I endured in 1970, when I was sixteen years old. The location I was taken to seems to have been an old slaughterhouse, converted to be used to modify the physiology of abductees. In my case I was told that a minor operation was done to my adrenal glands. It involves 'fake humans', real humans, a 'Nordic' type and a hybrid with all black eyes. This experience wasn't "bone-chilling" but I think it gives an idea of how a wide variety of beings work together to recruit, train and modify the physiology of some humans to serve in what amounts to a clandestine operation taking place on Earth. This excerpt beings after I had been abducted from the local J.C. Penny store while shopping for new school clothes. It was my first solo drive using the family car and I was hoping that nothing would go wrong.
Excerpt from the account titled A Minor Operation:
I tried to make a quick evaluation of who and what I was dealing with. The three men, all wearing white jump suits, looked exactly the same. They had straight blond, rather stiff hair, blue eyes and skin with a strange yellowish-tan complexion. There was something about their appearance that didn't look quite human. It was almost as though they were made of plastic, an impression that was reinforced by their unnaturally stiff postures and completely blank expressions. One of the men moved to the back of the van and opened the roll-up door. Another man produced a hypodermic syringe from his pocket and gave me a jab in the arm. Without saying anything or providing any clue whatsoever about why I was being taken, my kidnappers then lifted me into the cargo area of the truck and closed the door. In the blackness I could feel myself slip into a really sleepy state and then become completely oblivious to anything that might have been happening around me.
At some point I regained consciousness, finding that I had ended up in a bleak, concrete room, painted a dull yellow color. Looking around this windowless cell, I was unhappy to see that the bags of my newly purchased school clothes were nowhere in sight. Even more troubling, the clothes that I had been wearing before the kidnapping had been removed from my body and replaced with a flimsy hospital gown. Climbing out of an old fashioned, folding military cot that I had somehow been placed on, I walked over to the open door and peered out into the hallway. After looking left and right, I didn't see anybody and since I didn't have any restraints on my motion or volition I decided to look around this space in an effort to figure out what was going on. The hall, of the same construction as the small room I had been left in, was made of concrete with the pattern of the form boards evident in the texture of the walls and ceiling. Lighting came from ordinary florescent fixtures mounted on the ceiling. Still not seeing anyone, I ventured down the hallway, noticing an unpleasant smell that seemed like a combination of chlorine disinfectant and the revolting odor of rotting meat.
The disgusting smell got stronger the further I went down the hallway. It seemed to be coming from a particular room, and with a somewhat perverse interest I entered this space wondering what might be causing the stink. By this point, my hunch was that I had been taken to an underground complex. This tentative conclusion was based on the fact that all of the rooms I had been in up to this point didn't have windows and also the bunker-like concrete construction of the walls and ceilings. Also, there was an obvious deficiency of ventilation. The smelly room I had just entered was fairly large, with other rooms in sight connected to it. The floor sloped downwards, away from the hallway and I could see a metal drain grate at the lowest point. To the right of me, a variety of crude looking implements were organized on the wall. They consisted of different sizes and styles of saws, pliers, clamps, hooks and other things I couldn't identify. Walking further into what was now looking and smelling like something between a rendering works and a butcher shop, I had to hold my nose because of the putrid stench.
My expedition stopped when I came to a large table, on top of which was scattered an assortment of severed legs and other body parts of cows, including gooey globs that looked to me like internal organs. I involuntarily yelled out an expression of disgust. Only a few seconds after this, a loud buzzer sounded in the hallway and I realized that my short adventure trying to get an idea of where I had been taken to was probably about over. My exhortation clearly had the unanticipated and unplanned for result of attracting the attention of somebody. This was confirmed when a short, balding, white-haired man came out of the room near where I was, looking completely surprised and irritated that somebody had entered his area. This old guy was identifiably human, unlike the 'men' who had pulled me out of the J.C. Penney store. He wore a white smock which was soiled by splotches and smears of red. Behind him I could see a band saw, like the kind I had seen before at the neighborhood butcher shop.
Only a minute or so later, two people wearing white laboratory coats entered the room that I had wandered into. I heard the old meat cutter complain, saying something about lax security. Of the two people who were now standing next to me, one was definitely not what I considered human, at least in appearance. The least unusual of this pair, in my opinion, was close to seven feet tall and along with very pale skin and piercing, blue eyes, had fairly long, wavy blond hair. His companion stood only about five feet tall and had olive-brown skin and black, straight hair in a conservative cut. What made the short guy look weird to me were his unusually large, all black eyes. These were oval shaped and, spaced apart widely on his face, slanted upwards slightly at the outer corners. These two people didn't seem overly worried about my escape. The tall guy asked me a few simple questions while the short guy stared into my eyes. My attention was completely absorbed by this penetrating gaze so that I barely noticed the jab of the syringe needle into my arm.
My eyes opened to look upwards to a concrete ceiling painted pale yellow. I was being moved on a gurney down a hallway and didn't feel good. There was somebody next to me that looked like he might be a doctor, or just another person in a white coat. Feeling really weak, I asked this man what was going on, what did they do to me? He said that I had just had a minor operation, and that there was nothing to worry about. "%$&@ you", I told him with as much energy as I could muster. I was worried and was going to keep on worrying until somebody explained what the f&*% they were doing to me. I insisted on being told what kind of operation. I got silence in reply. Repeating my demand for information a few more times, the man walking alongside the gurney finally said something about an adjustment to my endocrine system and something to do with adrenal glands. I had no idea what this was or what it entailed and gave up trying to understand the weird things that had happened to me, beginning with being pulled out the J.C. Penney store by what seemed like invisible rubber bands.
I was rolled out through a set of double doors and saw the sky and smelled fresh air. What a relief that was. Still laying on the gurney, I could at least move my head around enough to see that I was in an enclosed courtyard. It looked very utilitarian, with the surrounding construction made of poured concrete. Feeling revived by the fresh air, I struggled to move some more with the objective of getting off the gurney. This, to my great consternation, proved impossible because I was strapped down. Apparently my earlier escape had prompted the 'hospital' staff to take no chances and tie me down! I voiced my complaints, laced with a suitable dose of profanity, but felt so helpless and dejected at this point that I began to cry. Someone next to me said that I shouldn't worry – not a particularly helpful suggestion – because I was going to be taken back home in just a few minutes. Before I could choke out an obscene reply, a mask was placed over my face. Having no choice in the matter, I breathed in whatever concoction was being given to me. In only a few seconds my previous state of high anxiety was shifted to a pleasant feeling of detachment along with a complete lack of concern about anything. I recall coming somewhat back to my physical senses when I felt my limp body being lifted and strapped into a seat. Just barely awake, I also heard loud wump-wump-wump sounds and with an effort managed to open my eyes to see that I had been placed in the front seat of a helicopter. Just before I passed out I heard the helicopter pilot talking to me in a soothing voice [with a noticeable country twang]. He said, "Buddy, don't worry. I've got everything under control and I'll have you back home in no time".
8. What other type beings have you interacted with and what was the purpose of the interaction?
KB: I've had close contacts with a few dozen types of so-called aliens. These included cases of two types of Sasquatch (in the woods of British Columbia) a few mantids, little blue dwarf guys and on and on. The purpose of the interactions often related to my service to the Gray military operation which polices and grooms the planet. Also, I was involved in disabled craft retrievals (U.S. Coast Guard complete with scuba divers was involved here) and, oh, jeez a whole bunch more. A lot of what I did with my Reptilian handler was in tandem with the Grays and it concerned sting operations to document a variety of 'aliens' involved in drug and arms trafficking — non terrestrial humans were involved in this smuggling. I got pulled over by the German MiB after one of those jobs. Some of my jobs serving the Grays dealt with vampires — these are the true shape-shifters and are a serious menace on this planet, believe it or not. I also had some experiences with 'Light Beings' which I was scared to death to get near but the real ones (yes, there are fakes) leave you feeling like you are floating on air after the exposure. It's pure Love. I met one Light Being at Copper Creek on Bewitt Pass in eastern Washington state. 'He' caused a bunch of angel hair to fall all over the ground. It was July 4, 1986 and about 90' F outside. I picked up a few handfuls of it and put in my cooler but it just turned to mush in a few minutes later.
I also had several abductions/contacts with a type that looks like the blue dwarves except they are about normal human height and not stocky. In these cases I was used for reproduction and in 1984, when I was 30, I was shown a group of my offspring who at this point were somewhere between 7 and 12 years old. I still haven't gotten a Father's day card from them yet, oh well . . . I don't know why I was desirable as a sperm 'donor' (man, if I just got 50 bucks per session I might not be so resentful). Maybe it's because one part of my family is blond, blue-eyed and fair skinned and I'm the ordinary brown-eyed, brown hair (now gray) Anglo-Saxon type. So my genome would be like one stop shopping. I have A- blood, if that makes any difference.
9. What is the chapter about called the Sperm Merchant? That sounds intriguingly bizarre.
KB: This took place in 1964 before the Grays had become effective in clamping down on a bunch of unauthorized ET traffic on Earth. I think that it is important to consider that by the 1960s it was widely known that the terrestrial human project was going to reach a terminal stage. I strongly suspect that it was also known that the DNA and correspondingly the reproductive material (gametes) of the current crop of humans would soon be degraded because of nuclear and chemical contamination. So between the '60s and '80s was like a last chance for traders and smugglers to obtain clean, I'm tempted to say 'vintage', human sperm and ova, and also before the Grays quarantined the planet for good, well . . . for a long time. The little creature I called the Sperm Merchant seems to have been a trader of human gametes. This little creep preyed on school kids who had just become sexually mature. I also saw that he had a mattress and blanket in his small travel craft. It was gross.
10. Could you share another story with us from your book that you would like our readers to know about?
KB: The following is an excerpt from book 1 of The Verges and is from the discussion of my account titled, In the House of God. I was sixteen years old at the time and had a job to lock all the doors and windows of the neighborhood church late at night.
This 1969 encounter which took place inside of the local Presbyterian church sometime near midnight clearly demonstrates how the gray-skinned Ant People are skilled tricksters. Stealth and cunning is their forte. A link between these strange beings and traditional concepts of fairies, elves and so forth is impossible to overlook, I think, particularly in light of the tactics used on me in this experience. The lilting and beguiling flute music that came from the bottom of the stairway could have been from the eighteenth-century and combined with the pitiful voice of what I thought was a young man asking for assistance turned out instead to be a trio of Grays. For the record I should probably add that there was another occasion when this flute music trick was used to get my attention. This took place during the early morning hours in July, 1987 at the infamous Astoria Hotel in Vancouver, B.C., Canada. In this situation the source of the ruse turned out to be the deep-blue colored Dwarf 'aliens' and not the Grey types. In both cases the subterfuge of old Irish flute music was successfully employed to lure me into their grasp. And in both cases the treasure these curious folk were after wasn't gold but gametes, in other words the substance of my seminal fluid.
It's rather irksome for me to look back on all the shenanigans I've had to put up with just for these 'aliens' to collect my sperm. Why was it that they operated in such secrecy? In the current era they might have placed an online ad, maybe on Craig's List, to expedite the process. But I suppose there would probably be issues with posting an ad like, "Inter-dimensional fairies seeking sperm donations to make mutants. No compensation". Sarcasm aside, there has been an anachronistic quality to much of what has taken place in my various skirmishes with strange beings. It is as though these exotic transients, who obviously have something to gain by exploiting humans, are not altogether in synch with the styles and standards of any particular contemporary setting. This has not infrequently been demonstrated to me by how their curiously awkward and sometimes old-fashioned approach – MiB and their vintage cars come to mind here – is astonishingly juxtaposed with what appears to be extremely advanced technology. For me, this seems to point to a situation where many of the secretive beings who have meddled with my life are not resident to any particular time-line. While their savvy of pertinent human culture may sometimes be sorely lacking, their navigation skills seem to be independent of the shackles of time.
There is more – actually, a whole lot more – to be said regarding what might be described as the loose association that the grey-skinned Ant People have with what we ordinary, mundane humans think of as space-time, not to mention gravity. What I saw in the church just after hearing the lamentations – in perfectly good English, by the way – of the homeless flute player was a slightly glowing whitish-grey blur roaring up the lower part of the staircase, pivoting around 180° effortlessly in the landing mid way up and without slowing down then coming to a sudden stop only inches away from my body. The rush of this movement instantly congealed into the opaque and presumably solid forms of three small Gray aliens. By this point my body had been somehow locked in situ while these little devils did their job on me. After their mission was completed – collecting my sperm – they streaked back down the stairs in exactly the same blurred, rapid motion by which they had arrived. Standing mostly undressed and in a state of shock, I was struggling to make sense of what had just happened. Of course my psyche was trying to deal with just having been raped but I also recall being bewildered at how these little creatures could move so rapidly. What I saw, in a flash of time was that as they arrived and departed they appeared to leave something like a wispy trail with a strobe effect.
In my strange experiences with exogenic beings there sometimes seems to have been a disturbingly nefarious undercurrent that surfaced by means of enacting an occult ritual. This leads my thoughts back to something I touched on earlier in this discussion, which is the quirky, anachronistic and sometimes histrionic elements appearing in many of my contact events. From my vantage point today, more than four decades down the road, so to speak, from where I was as a sixteen-year-old kid, I can also see that there was a darkly comedic tone to events. It was as though I was a child actor who had been recruited to perform a role that would satisfy the weird taste of otherworldly beings whose preference in entertainment was decidedly chthonian. It isn't exactly clear to me if the appearance of the iconic Grim Reaper figure who showed up just after my emotionally devastating rape by a trio of Grays was integral to the drama of a naked, homeless flute player or if it was a case of opportunism. From a psychological standpoint I was pretty much like road kill at this point and any number of hypo-dimensional, soul-sucking scavengers would probably be delighted to take advantage of the situation. However, given the milieu and genre that saturated this experience I think that the events from beginning to end were a carefully planned operation to insure that I would remain ensnared in service to a very alien agenda.
11. Ken you will be appearing on The Church of Mabus later in the year and I am looking forward to it. What links do you have to share with us and also what future plans do you have projects or book wise? Thanks Ken!
KB: My main web page is www.kenbakeman.com. You can click on the link to unusual experiences and go from there. I already have Book 2 of The Verges in progress and it'll be completed by the end of this summer, or thereabouts. Book 2 covers the years between (about) 1972 and 1984. Then Book 3 will cover between 1984 and 1996. Jeffrey, thanks for your great questions and I look for to talking with you on The Church of Mabus.