If American pop-culture is any indicator that homosexuality is widely embraced by the country, it will not be long before homosexuals obtain full civil rights. After all, six states already issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and several additional states offer other accommodations to homosexual couples. Unfortunately, this is yet more evidence of the moral decay of American society.
To say such a thing is branded intolerant in today's postmodern world. Such was the case in Charlotte Biblical Examiner Vincent Eagan III's article, Mecklenburg County Christian - How tolerant should you be? Mr. Eagan reported on the recent controversy involving a resolution passed by the Mecklenburg Board of County Commissioners pledging their "support for diversity, tolerance, and inclusion in the community." As a result, commenter John Carson epitomized the world's intolerance of Eagan's Christian worldview by stating the following:
And, until you are ready to lobby congress to make homosexuality a capital crime, stop claiming that your bigotry is the result of simply following the bible.
This is what is known as a red herring. Eagan made no such argument to criminalize homosexuality in his article and merely sought to address cultural intolerance of the Christian worldview of homosexuality while exhorting Christians to stand on the absolute truth of God's Word. Carson attempted to distract from Eagan's original claim by not only knocking down a false assertion (strawman), but also by attacking Eagan as a bigot (ad hominem). The truth is, however, Carson's defense of homosexuality may be the least of his problems.
Many professing Christians may, in fact, rightfully be charged as bigots. Their cold, legalistic attitude towards homosexuals cannot be considered anything less than hatred. However, to paint all true Christians with this broad brush is simply not accurate. In any case, the sin of homosexuality does not stand alone as sin that condemns one to hell. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says,
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Comments
This is disgusting. You ought to be ashamed of yourself and your faith for spreading this depressing trash around the world.
The Gospel is for you also, Anonymous. You are not promised to wake from your sleep tomorrow, so you should make haste to determine the truth about eternity. It's forever and ever, so you need to make sure you have the right answer. The Gospel of John would be a great place for you to start.
Isiah 5:20: Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Amen, anonymous. Here's part of Matthew Henry's commentary on Isaiah 5:
"Also, as a God that is holy; he shall be owned and declared to be so, in the righteous punishment of proud men. Those are in a woful condition who set up sin, and who exert themselves to gratify their base lusts. They are daring in sin, and walk after their own lusts; it is in scorn that they call God the Holy One of Israel. They confound and overthrow distinctions between good and evil. They prefer their own reasonings to Divine revelations; their own devices to the counsels and commands of God. They deem it prudent and politic to continue profitable sins, and to neglect self-denying duties. Also, how light soever men make of drunkenness, it is a sin which lays open to the wrath and curse of God. Their judges perverted justice. Every sin needs some other to conceal it."
Justin,
Thank you for citing me and my article. I did not feel Mr. Carson had strongly attacked me - I was thinking more along the lines that his statement which you quoted was more of a general statement than one directed at me. I could be wrong, but either way I have weathered much stronger protests than his - I was once targeted by a certain national organization when they found a sermon I preached posted online. And even that was better than when I became the object of one confessed homosexual's affection (or obsession) ... we won't go into that. Long story.
There are several questions I have about your article. First I want to say that I hope you were not including me as one who places homosexuality as "worse than" other sins. I have articles written here where I specifically have stated that homosexuality is sin - just like fornication, lying, and getting drunk. All sin is the same in God's eyes - it is only man that tends to place a "value" on sin. I have also preached the same from the pulpit (shocking hearers in some places. People don't exactly appreciate being told that when they lie, they are in the same condition as one who has cheated on his wife.) (cont.)
Second, you state that man is born in a depraved condition. Would you mind backing that up with scripture? In Ezekiel 18, we are told that a son shall not bear the sin of his father - now, I understand that in context, this is speaking about the last and final overthrow of Jerusalem by Babylon, but do you not believe since God states this as his principle in that case, it extends to other cases since God does not change?
Don't get me wrong - I believe every man has sinned or will sin, otherwise God would not have had to assume human form and die in our place in order to save us. But I have a problem with believing that man is already in sin by the time he has been born. That removes choice from him and insinuates that God will condemn someone who did not choose to sin. Not only that, but by that we must now say a baby - who has absolutely no way of repenting - will go to hell if he dies before being able to understand sin and repent of it.
Lastly, I don't think you quite covered salvation. You suggested all a person needs to do is repent and believe the gospel. (At least you didn't say, "All you have to do is ask Jesus to come into your heart..." - which is NOWHERE in the Bible!) Perhaps one could suggest repenting includes this - but the Bible is pretty clear that a person needs to be baptized as well. Mark 16:16 tell us that one who believes and is baptized shall be saved, Matthew 28:19 tells us that baptism is part of the Great Commission (teach them the gospel, baptize them, and then teach them some more), and Acts 2:38 tells us that one who repents and is baptized will be forgiven of sins.
Not sure what "anonymous" thinks is depressing garbage. You addressed the obvious sinfulness of the world (to think it is not depraved would be willful blindness) and then showed that there is hope. That sounds to me like something about which to rejoice.
Hi Vincent, thank you for the comment. From what I read in your article, I by no means thought you elevated homosexuality above other sins. I was speaking to the moralistic Pharisees of the church. As you alluded, all sin is the transgression of the Law, whether it's a lie or fornication.
Regarding depravity - this is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, eg original sin. Psalm 51:5 is direct evidence we are sinful at birth. Other themes of Scripture are that we are dead in our trespasses, none are righteous, none seek God, and we are spiritually dead, blind, and deaf, loving the darkness instead of the light because our deeds are evil. There is much, much more, but suffice it to say man cannot choose God. His will is in bondage and the only choice he can make is to rebel. That is why God's mercy and grace must rescue us from the flames because that is the direction we are all headed from birth. We are all born sinners, and each of us will either be the benefactors of mercy, or the subjects to justice.
...As to baptismal regeneration - that is a heresy. I'm sure you would agree that Scripture cannot contradict itself, so we must not develop doctrines based on single verses, but must must consider the whole context and the whole counsel of God. We are clearly justified by faith alone according to Romans, Galatians, and James. This article covers the topic well and provides you with additional resources on the matter: http://airo-cross.blogspot.com/2010/09/does-baptism-save.html
Justin,
Reading from Galatians, Romans, and James, I only find the words "Faith" and "alone" next to each other in one place:
"Jam 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. "
Now how do you explain that based on what you just said - that all you need is faith for Salvation - when clearly this scripture says that's wrong? Moreover, how do you explain what you yourself said earlier - that a person needs to repent? And how do you explain what is said by Jesus himself in Mark 16 and Matthew 28? How do you explain Acts 2:38, when the answer to the question "What should we do?" was answered with, "Repent and be baptized"? How do you explain Acts 22:16, when Saul was told, "Arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS", when Saul already believed and had repented?
Psalm 51:5 - You are taking this verse out of context. David was not writing a doctrinal thesis on sin - he was using figurative language because this is a POEM. If you are going to say we need to take everything in it literally, rather than figuratively, please explain the following literally: "blot out my transgressions ... Wash me…cleanse me ... My sin is ever before me ... Against you, you only, have I sinned ... Purge me with hyssop…wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow ... Let the bones you have broken rejoice ... Create in me a clean heart”
What you appear to be saying is that man has no choice whatsoever - he has to sin. That would make God unjust. My God is not unjust. We always have a choice whether or not to sin.
Vincent,
As the discussion has already become quite convoluted, I think the best way to answer your questions is with additional questions. It may save us both a lot of time and energy.
Are you Roman Catholic?
Do you consider yourself Pelagian? Do you understand the term and it's theology?
Do you reject Sola Fide?
To be clear on James 2:17 - works do not justify you, they give evidence of saving faith. In other words, works don't save, but saving faith works.
The link I provided addresses the Scriptures you posted regarding baptismal regeneration.
Justin,
I am Christian. I identify by no other term, and in fact by what we read in 1 Corinthians 1:10, I believe other labels to be wrong. I will go far enough to tell you I do not agree with many doctrines of the Catholic Church.
That said, I also will not identify by the second label you used. If by said label you mean do I believe this: "In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for obeying the Gospel in addition to full responsibility for every sin..." (from Wikipedia), then yes, I do believe that. But if by that you mean do I believe that moral perfection is attainable in this life, then no, I do not believe that.
I do reject sola fide.
Why all these non-biblical terms, Justin? I believe that anything we hold to be doctrinal must be fully scriptural and scriptural only.
I agree with what you say on James 2:17, but to say that then you must be saying it is a working faith that saves you. Not faith (belief) by itself. If you have a saving faith, you will also have works, one of which will be to obey the gospel and be baptized. Right?
As to the article - I want to know what YOU think, Justin. Put your arguments here, so that I can respond to YOU. I looked at the article, and found it full of holes, including that the man pompously declared to know what others believe, as well as left out bits and pieces of scripture when it suited him to do so (which he had just stated with disdain that other people do). Take a look at his "quote" of 1 Peter 3:21and tell me that I am wrong. But I am not talking to that man, I am talking with you. If I want to respond to him and what he wrote, I'll do it over there on his ground.
Vincent,
I appreciate you answering the questions I asked. However, I must say, if you reject sola fide, which is the very foundation of the Christian faith, then we will likely not agree on much else. Sola fide is the biblical doctrine that we are justified by faith alone. To be frank, sola fide is the Gospel, and any teaching contrary is a false gospel that falls under Galatians 1:9.
Scripture says we are justified by faith alone:
Romans 4:4-5, Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 3:6-11 to name a few.
To reject sola fide shows a fundamental misunderstanding of soteriology and the judicial transaction that takes place when one is saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. When God causes us to be born again, He changes our mind, emotions, and will to be able to repent towards Him. Through this repentant faith, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, and our sin was imputed to Him on the cross. It is a one time and final transaction. We are therefore clothed with the righteousness of Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption....
...
This saving faith is not a dead faith. Saving faith bears fruit in keeping with repentance and God's characteristics will be manifest in the life of the believer. But this labor of love or fruit of the Spirit or sanctification is not what saves us. It is the righteousness of Christ alone that is imputed to us through faith that God pronounces us not guilty.
If one believes their own righteousness saves them, or their obedience saves them, then they likely have yet to be saved. If one teaches that one must obey sacraments, and that obedience is what saves a sinner by their own righteousness, then that person is teaching another Gospel, and they are on extremely dangerous ground.
Sola fide is the Gospel. Any other teaching is damnable heresy. I hope you will diligently pursue God and ask Him to show you your error. As the Bible cannot contradict, it is not possible for Paul to teach justification by faith, while others teach justification by faith plus works (eg baptism).
p.s. the link I gave you was my website.
This is very serious, Vincent. We cannot both be right. One of us is teaching a damnable heresy, and the consequence of that is eternally fatal. I pray the the Lord leads you into His truth.
I looked at the article you gave me, and it did not have your name on it. It appeared to me to be written by a Tony Garland. As I said, there were many holes in it. I did not take up that gauntlet here, because we are only allowed 1500 characters per comment, and I'd be here all night dividing he thing up and then I'd probably get canned for spam or something. In addition - I could sit here and throw papers I've written out at you as well. I did not, because I felt it should be discussed here.
Teaching that a person must be baptized is not teaching works salvation, Tony. Tell me this - did you or did you not say in this article that a person has to repent?? I know I read that. In fact, I just went through it again and I counted FOUR times where you said that. Repentance is a work, Tony. You are teaching the same "damnable heresy" you say I am teaching. Maybe you should repent of it.
You are going to have to show me a place where it says a person is saved by faith alone, Tony. The scriptures you pointed to... say grace. Grace does not equal faith.
You also keep ignoring the scriptures I asked you to explain. I've gone to yours. Am I not owed the same respect?
Vincent,
Repentance is a gift. Faith is a gift. They are not works. Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Here are additional verses:
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
apart from scripture never saying that homosexuality is a sin, and that jesus spoke about it matthew 19, the standard for the new covenant is the godlove of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor), in other words it is love not law. being homosexual does not come against this love. homosexuals live the fullness of god's love in the same way as do heterosexuals. where god's fullness is , is what is of god. "that which does not come against us is for us." "christ's love transcends all knowledge"
feetxxxl, did you skip the verses in the article that show homosexuals and sodomites will not inherit the kingdom of God? Please see this article explaining who else will not inherit the Kingdom: http://airo-cross.blogspot.com/2011/02/people-who-will-not-go-to-heaven....
Truth is already established. You cannot make it up. God has decreed homosexuality to be sin, and all unrepentant homosexuals, just like all unrepentant fornicators, adulterers, liars, thieves, etc. will not see the light of heaven, but perish forever in the lake of fire.
feetxxxl - unlike Justin here, I don't think you want to go read a long drawn out article on another site (at least HE wrote THIS one), rather than just looking here to see what he has to say.
What do you think this means?
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
See, in this scripture, I see 4 things stated about homosexual acts:
1. Vile
2. Against Nature
3. Shameful
4. Error worthy of penalty
With this stated, how can you sit there and say the Scripture never calls homosexuality sin?
Sorry John, but a temporary sacrifice is NOT a sacrifice. Jesus (if he actually existed) didn't sacrifice a whit.
Hi AyameTan, I'm not exactly sure who you are responding to? In any case, what do you think happens when you die?
I THINK perhaps AyameTan is saying that since Jesus rose from the dead, there wasn't actually a sacrifice.
He died on a cross, AyameTan. Extremely painful, and he did not have to do it nor did he do anything to deserve it. Tell you what - you go spend some time on a cross then you come back and we'll talk about how it wasn't "really" a sacrifice, K?
BTW - you'll be resurrected on the last day as well ... it is both the righteous and the unrighteous. Will you dare to say to his face that you don't think he exists, and that he made no sacrifice?
if you are referring to 1tim and 1cor that would be attempting to make a regulation against homosexuality as deut28. that is an old covenant relationship to god. the new covenant is not the revised old covenant. the new covenant is entirely new. under it instead of a relationship to god thru regulation(torn curtain) it is directly to the one who lives in each believer, the triune god. it is about conviction of the heart about those things that come against the fruit of the spirit in gal5. being homosexual does not do that. homosexuals bond in the same way as heterosexuals out of mutual love, affection, devotion,trust, and respect for a shared committed life together.
Anonymous, I'm sorry, but you cannot redefine Scripture. Are you saying that as long I'm not convicted in my heart to murder or lie or steal or commit adultery, then there is no law against me?
Anon - here are those things that come against the fruit of the spirit as defined by Galatians 5:
"5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Homosexual acts fall within the realm of fornication, uncleanness, and/or lewdness.
Justin,
Thank you for going to scripture at least. Now show me scripture that says what you tell me. You told me repentance is a gift. I waited patiently as I read through a bunch of scripture you gave me. Then I read through again, figuring I must have just missed it. But I can't figure out where in those verses it says repentance is a "gift" and not an obedient act of faith. WHERE did you get that?
The scripture to which you point say that we are not justified by works of the law. Ok. I already agreed with you there. No matter how many "good works" we do, once we sin we are separated from God and therefor are not and can not be justified without the blood of Christ. But according to Romans 6, the way I access that blood is by baptism. Then you went through and started doing what you accuse me of doing (but have not proved), taking verses wildly out of context.
Interestingly you also hit Romans 10:10. That talks about believing, yes. But it also says you have to confess, now doesn't it? "for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Now there it says confessing is necessary as well. "RESULTING in salvation", Justin. Is not that a work? Or is that also a "gift"?
This all said - you seem to be getting bludgeoned by people who want to tell us that homosexuality is not sin. I fear our debate is about to blur what you said in the article - most of which is good, and that perhaps we'll lose a chance to answer other ... points ... that people are making. Perhaps it would be best of we move this debate to another medium?
Vincent,
The verses I gave you were in reference to our justification by faith alone. This is the very doctrine the Reformation stood upon as it broke away from the apostate Roman Catholic Church. Frankly, I am not interested in debate, which is why I attempted to draw you out with those 3 initial questions to save us both time and energy. I do not have the luxury to expound a theological thesis every time the opportunity presents itself. That is why it is easiest to sometimes refer to certain doctrinal positions to represent my view or point to previously written articles. And on that note, my main purpose here is not to win a debate, it is to proclaim the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, so I will use whatever resource to make His name known.
As one who adheres to the doctrines of grace, I believe the following:
Man is radically corrupt and cannot choose God out of the exercise of his free will because his will is in bondage to sin.
For His glory alone, God chose a people to redeem for Himself through Jesus Christ and this is accomplished by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.
To achieve God's divine purpose of election, Christ died for His sheep as the Good Shepherd.
To fulfill His promise of redemption, no one can resist God's effectual call of grace.
Once His sheep are redeemed, they are sealed forever by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption...
...I refer to Ephesians 1:3-14, John 6:37-44, John 1:12-13, Romans 9:16, 1 Peter 1:3-5, John 10:11, John 10:27-29, Romans 8:37-39, Romans 8:28-30, Philippians 1:6, John 15:16, John 5:24-26, Ephesians 2:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Corinthians 1:16-31 and Romans 3:10-11 (not exclusively by any means) to support my positions.
Salvation is monergistic. It is a completely and absolutely a work of God alone. From start to finish, He gets the glory. I am thankful and humbled He chose me, and this salvation He has given me as a gift according to His own counsel will be made perfect in me as He will finish the work He started. I am called to be holy as He is holy, and because salvation is His work, sanctification is His work. No one is justified who is not also sanctified, and one cannot be sanctified unless he is first justified.
If you deny that salvation comes by the grace of God alone through faith alone in Christ alone, then you deny the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the same doctrine of devils as the RCC, and they stand accursed under the judgment of God.
On that note, this conversation has gone completely off topic from the OP, so I agree that we should discontinue the discussion.
if our righteousness is apart from the law why would believers rely on what our righteousness is not part of to lead us. its christ's love that leads us. god is love. "the law is ONLY a shadow of things to come and not the realities themselves" the realities are christ's love. under the new covenant the law is to make us aware of NOT GODLOVING OUR NEIGHBOR. but it is christ"s love that shows us what his love is.
its christ's love that determines what the law is and what it says, because the purpose of the law is to point to his love.
feetxxxl - please note what Jesus said in John 15:
"13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you."
Also note this from John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
It appears there is a law Jesus expects us to follow.
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
you completely negate the spirit that lives in each believer. humans can rationalize anything they choose, but the fruit of the spirit of christ is different from that of powers and principalities, and cannot be out rationalized. how is it that you would think that thru what we are created is not greater than anything of this world.
how can that which created thru christ be convicted of anything other that that which is of christ. they can live in denial, delusion, or deceit but not conviction.
you are leaning on the hypothetical. even in the max security prisions i met no inmate that was convicted, but a whole lot that were full delusion, denial and deceit.
the command is to love one another as i have loved you
"the love of christ transcends all knowledge(law)"
1cor13 anything without love is nothing and gains nothing. there are a whole lot of reasons to be obedient to an understanding of the law, but none of them can be love.
by godloving according to the 2nd commandment we do much more than follow the law, which even if we follow it we gain no righteousness, instead we fulfill the law(fulfillment of the law is love). to fulfill the law is to complete the purpose of the law......which is to point to christ's love.
christ who said, follow me.
again being homosexual does not come against this love.
"anything that is not against us is for us."
Isa. 30:9 This is a rebellious people,
Lying children,
Children who will not hear the law of the LORD;
10 Who say to the seers, "Do not see,"
And to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits.
11 Get out of the way,
Turn aside from the path,
Cause the Holy One of Israel
To cease from before us."
i assumed that because of our mutual knowledge of scripture that it was obvious the scriptures i was speaking from. which scripture have i misunderstood?
vincent
accusations without explanation.................... from the scripture you offered are you saying that the new covenant is the revised old covenant..............a revised relationship to god thru regulation?
heb8 characterizes the old covenant as being "wrong"
Feet (such an odd name...), what I am saying is that you want to point to love and say, "An that's all there is to it!" But that's not all there is to it. I was flabbergasted when you started to talk about how none of those people in prison were convicted, but there was a lot of delusion and denial - because that characterizes you.
Feet, you've been shown that the New Testament CLEARLY states homosexual acts are sinful. You have offered nothing to explain why you think it is okay to ignore that. I am left to assume that you don't feel the Bible is the over-ruling standard by which we must live. If that is the case, I am afraid there is nothing more about which to talk.
our relationship to our adopting father is thru regulation................. when a healthy relationship with our human father would be thru spirit thru a spirit of love.?????
Justin - I hope you will permit me this one last comment, because I still find your position so strange to understand. You say yo must take time to proclaim the gospel. But when I look at your points, I wonder why you would bother to do so? For you said in two points:
1. Man cannot choose God
2. Man can not resist God's Grace
I perceive that you are a Calvinist. I must ask, if a man is chosen beforehand whether or not he will be saved, to such extent that he can not resist God's grace, then why should you waste time preaching? It's already decided whether someone is going to Heaven or Hell, according to your philosophy.
And you have yet to show anyone a verse that says "Faith alone". I suggest that is because, as you already know, it's not there.
I actually covered that question a couple weeks ago if you'd like to read it: http://airo-cross.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-evangelize-if-election-is-tru...
The bottom line, we evangelize because God commands us. We are His chosen vessels to carry out His will.
I indeed showed you that we are justified by faith alone. If we were not, Paul would have used different language. He certainly did not say we were justified by faith plus works - ANYWHERE. Your argument is similar to one that says the word "trinity" is not in Scripture, therefore the triune God is not biblical. Yet, the conceptual truth is most evident.
vincent
if according to scripture homosexality of itself, its sexual intimacy, is a sin, then why is there any mention of "shameful lust". there is shameful lust in heterosexuality.
is it your contention that all all homosexual bonding is about the same shameful lust that is in heterosexuality?
is it your contention that homosexuality is about abandonment? what does desiring to bond with those of the same sex, from their first sexual memory 24/7 their entire lives have to do with abandonment?
if homosexuals relate to the women in their life as sisters and mothers where is the abandonment.
do you think the oppression and burden of your understanding about the law resembles the godlove of the 2nd commandment?
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