Reader feedback sections in both the on-line Seattle Times and Seattle Post-Intelligencer editions are loading up with comments (more than 220 in the Times at last count) as the public reacts to Monday afternoon’s fatal shooting by a Seattle police officer of a man apparently carrying a knife.
Was the man merely whittling, as has been reported, or did the officer perceive a genuine threat when he confronted the as-yet unidentified man? That’s a question that must be sorted out, and not in the emotion-laden atmosphere surrounding this story right now, but after the situation is analyzed.
Perhaps not since the David Walker incident in which Walker was fatally shot by a Seattle officer after allegedly pulling a robbery, and then prancing and walking down a sidewalk – ignoring demands by several cops to drop the knife he held – has the public been fixated on a “knife versus gun” situation.
It is probably not against the law anywhere to whittle on a stick, but in Seattle, it is a violation to do so with a fixed-blade knife or folder that has a blade longer than 3 ½ inches. Seattle code prohibits carrying such knives openly or concealed. Indeed, Seattle prohibits a lot of stuff, but the framers of those regulations carefully avoided prohibiting firearms. Handguns may be legally carried openly or concealed – the latter with a valid concealed pistol license – but why not knives?
Years ago, a fellow used to walk around the city with a broadsword strapped to his back in a scabbard. One of the newspapers even did a story on the guy, not to be confused with that looney “Samurai Man” who stopped traffic one afternoon some years ago with a Samurai sword.
The Second Amendment protects the “right to keep and bear arms.” It doesn’t say “firearms.” Likewise, Washington State’s constitution recognizes the “right to bear arms” without defining the term. In the days when those amendments were adopted, "arms" in common use at the time included rapiers, cane swords, hatchets, daggers and, later, fighting knives such as the Bowie. These were frequently carried with one or two pistols.
When this writer was a public school student in Tacoma many years ago, there was invariably a pocket knife in the right pocket of my jeans. The shop teacher at Hunt Junior High School occasionally borrowed it without batting an eye.
So, did a cop over-react to a man on the sidewalk whittling on a stick? Did the fellow with the knife advance aggressively toward the officer once verbal contact was made? How big was the knife? What kind of knife was it? Where I live out in the foothills east of Seattle, pocket knives are common as gravel roads, and for the next couple of months during the hunting season, seeing a fixed-blade Buck on someone’s belt will cause about the same excitement as a yawn.
Several days ago in the Spokane Valley, a church pastor and nurseryman was shot dead by a policeman, parked in an unmarked car in the parking lot of the pastor’s nursery late at night. The pastor, apparently curious about the car on his property – there had been a rash of burglaries in the area – went to investigate, gun in hand. Now he is dead after some sort of “confrontation.” This column discussed the case here yesterday, and here several days ago. The Spokane Spokesman-Review now has compiled reader comments on that case.
Washington State statutes on the use of lethal force clearly recognize a double standard, and place more restrictions on police officers than private citizens. That is, “private citizens’ permissible use of deadly force under authority of (state law) is not restricted and remains broader than the limitations imposed on peace officers.”
Those who think knives are somehow less lethal than firearms need to read up on what is commonly called “The Tueller Principle” or “Tueller Drill.” A now-retired Salt Lake City police sergeant, Dennis Tueller, frequently demonstrated that a person armed with a knife can cross a 21-foot distance and kill or severely wound another person with a knife, if that other person has a holstered handgun. Before the gun can be drawn, the knife-armed person is on you.
The Times and P-I reader feedback have lots of comments, some good, some rather stupid. A few people are shocked that folks here might carry knives. Evidently they’re not from around here. Others wonder why the cop didn’t use a Taser (maybe he didn’t have one; not every officer does, you know), and at least one person wonders why the officer just didn’t gut-shoot the guy to wound him. Probably too much Hollywood involved in that reasoning.
There are many unanswered questions, both in Seattle and Spokane, about these fatal police shootings. Cooler heads must prevail in an atmosphere free from the current allegations about “trigger-happy cops.”
Yet, there must be full disclosure, because a lot of people want to know just how it is that a church pastor/businessman in Spokane who went to investigate suspicious activity on his own property, and an apparent homeless panhandler who was apparently whittling on a stick in Seattle are now dead. No amount of public discourse in Reader Feedback sections is going to bring them back.
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Comments
As a former police officer I can say that I would rather have been shot than charged and stabbed. If you have ever been in law enforcement or been stabbed, you will understand when i say that blades are very much lethal force situations.
No one is doubting that blades are lethal, they obviously worked quite well for thousands of years of human history. The issue here is whether or not the man with the knife actually posed any threat. It just seems that all too often police are initiating contact that almost immediately leads to the use of deadly force. That seems like a pretty serious training issue to me.
Just another reason in the long list to stay away from Seattle. My family used to have a business there. The smartest thing my farther did was sell of his property and move the family business. I'm happy there is less "Need" to go to Seattle...
I should also add to my previous statment, that it is all the wingnuts in the city and the hamstrung rules that the cops have to deal with that make it just another place to avoid..
I won't comment on the actual Case but I know there is in a ot of cases more fear of a knife than a gun, just as there is another fear of a Dog more so than an Armed person. I don't understand eigther of these Phobias but they do exist.
I just hope the peson shot over the knife was not deaf, I knew of a case where a man was killed because, he was trying to get close enough to hear what the Offices was saying, he wasn't killed but could have been!
I left out the word not before the first killed, in my previous remark.
Let's not forget about the brutal way three SPD cops "controlled" an elderly and apparently homeless witness for nothing more than removing his empty hands from his pockets, as they directed.
There seems to be a culture of brutality, thuggery, and lethal overreaction in the SPD. Picking the new chief from within that department was probably not such a bright idea.
Further, I submit that whittling is not just cause for an officer contact to begin with. What kind of people is SPD hiring these days, anyway?
If a man with a knife is approaching you and you tell him to stop and doesn't, would a reasonable man assume that he was in danger? I would. I believe the officer did what any other peson would do and that's defend himself. Just put yourself in the officer's position. Knives with blades longer than 3 1/2" or a fixed blade knife (one that doesn't fold into the handle) are illegal Seattle. What kind of knife was he holding? Was the officer just doing his job when he stopped?
You don't know that was happening. There's no indication that the whittler was moving in any direction. Is the officer's "job" to interfere with people who aren't bothering anyone else? Apparently it is in Seattle.
There is only one aspect of this story that needs discussing. The rest is drama. Carrying a knife that is not easy discernable as less than 3" in Seattle is going to as least get police attention if they see it. Not following police instructions to put the knife down and or stop advancing puts you in an extremely dangerous situation. Man w/badge and gun yelling at you is international language for drop what's in your hands and put them up! I don't care what language you speak. If you are dumb or retarded, and can't understand this then you are not competent to be on the streets alone. Aside: In the movie Copycat (1995) there is actually a great study in shooting to wound. Holly Hunter's character has a theory on shooting to wound which she details early in the film. Later the execution of this gets her partner killed. Yes it's Hollywood but in this case, the theory is depicted correctly.
Agree 100% Here here!
Yeah, let’s round up the ‘tards and dummies and get ‘em off the streets. Then the knife-carriers. Then the gun-carriers. Then those without the correct “papers.” And then those that just look “funny.” Then those that …
I'm trying to find the story about the guy carrying the broadsword back in the 90's i'm having no luck I remember seeing him in a parking lot practicing with his sword and once in a while I would see him downtown always dressed the part of a "Conan" we gave him the nick name "Conan"
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