It's Valentine Day in Denver.
Besides all the candy and card sales, there are the traditional lists at the news sources: places to go and things to do. Sometimes there are lists of the loved ones in our lives.
But who would have thought that a Christian would have a list of atheists he loves?
Of course, by love I do not mean an emotional connection. What I mean is an intellectual commitment to dialogue with certain atheists. A willingness on my part to move beyond superficial questions--albeit harder to accomplish in a news source format.
In fact, it is even harder to find the right atheist to love to talk to. This is partly due to ignorance on their part and partly due to hubris--at least in my experience, both online and in person, with many an atheist (or even skeptic).
But to the point: what type of atheist would I love to talk with? One who is knowledgeable or humble.
By knowledgeable I mean an atheist who is actually conversant about Christianity--and not the everyday confused version found on the street.
By humble I simply mean if they are not knowledgeable about Christianity, they are willing to learn before jumping in with both feet.
Does this mean I won't dialogue with other types of atheists or skeptics? Of course not! It just means a conversation goes more smoothly when the opponent knows what he is talking about.
Have I ever met this idealized atheist?
Yes I have. And I even sat down and had pizza with them.
Comments
I don't think you have a problem with atheists half as much as you do with dissent in general.
This is a hallmark of by-the-book believers.
Because it's written down and passed from generation to generation, you seem to think it deserves value. Got squat for evidence though.
A billion people belonging to a religion is not evidence of spiritual power. It only illustrates that people will swallow anything if it looks edible.
x
I unfortunately agree with your statement, "who would have thought that a Christian would have a list of atheists he loves?" or the thought of an atheist loving the Christian back.
Religious beliefs, including the belief against religious beliefs, are equally unverifiable. Yet still people of all beliefs quickly become so vehement against one another. Where's the opportunity for mutual understanding and growing if people focus on attacking beliefs rather than listening to the person who believes them.
We haven't all had the same experiences to lead us toward or away from a certain belief system. Atheists disbelieve in God for very valid reasons. Likewise, Christians embrace the existence of a higher power for equally valid reasons. It's a stalemate of faiths that often is denied by both sides.
I commend you, Shawn, for having the wisdom to realize atheists are no less worthy of love and respect than those with identical beliefs as yours.
"If men could only know each other, they would neither idolize nor hate." Elbert Hubbard
Be blessed, Brother.
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even harder to find the right atheist to love to talk to
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with that attitude, they'll hold you with the same contempt. doesn't say much for christ with you as his representative. seems a smug comment.
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This is partly due to ignorance on their part and partly due to hubris
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I mean an atheist who is actually conversant about Christianity--and not the everyday confused version found on the street
...
I simply mean if they are not knowledgeable about Christianity, they are willing to learn before jumping in with both feet
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i'd actually like to find a knowledgeable christian to talk to; not just the everyday confused one found on the street.
http://theweek.com/article/index/207591/religious-iq-why-do-atheists-out...
http://theundergroundsite.com/index.php/2010/09/agnostics-atheists-score...
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It just means a conversation goes more smoothly when the opponent knows what he is talking about
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indeed.
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This is partly due to ignorance on their part and partly due to hubris
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indeed...and let's not forget projection too, shawn.
in nearly 20 years of dialog about theology, it's not the blatant 4ssholes or the overtly ignorant or biased i can't tolerate. those that wear a vail of "love" just too thin to mask the voice of acerbity underneath it.
may your christ show you the work wasn't complete in receiving love, but in giving it.
what christians would i love to talk to? ones that make christ seem real and alive by the way they live, rather than as dead as the scrolls on which his story is enscribed.
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the opponent
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hubris
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indeed.
Hello Steve, from your comments you took my anecdotal observations personally--I hope not.
Let me try to explain:
1. My observation about why it is hard to find atheists to talk with was with a caveat: "at least in my experience" and "many atheists" in that experience. I never said all or most atheists.
2. Your observation about the religious study is correct: it does indicate a weakness in understanding of other religions by Christians themselves (although only 10% less than atheist as I recall). In fact, the ignorance of Christians about their own Christianity is a fact I have publicly lamented elsewhere.
3. As a matter of record, other atheist readers (like the Denver Zombie Examiner) actually read my articles and respect what I write without assuming the worse of my motives and understand the caveats given (see her, Jess, comment under "Many atheists ignorant of Christianity" http://www.examiner.com/christian-apologetics-in-denver/many-atheists-ig... )
Perhaps upon re-reading my article you will find that it has a positive angle (I have meet atheists who have knowledge)--and maybe you'll be the next atheist I can talk with.
Steve, you wrote: "what christians would i love to talk to? ones that make christ seem real and alive by the way they live, rather than as dead as the scrolls on which his story is enscribed."
I would agree. By the same token, I would like to meet atheists that live a life in consistency with their principles (wh/ differ wildly). Yet, not knowing many of them, I cannot comment either way beyond what they occasionally write on my articles. That being the case, I try to carefully explain any confusion and not assume the worse.
Even so, not knowing exactly what you mean (how does a Christian live like a "dead scroll"? how does a Christian "make christ seem real"? ), it is hard to react. Perhaps I will write an article on how the Christ of the NT responded differently to different people.
shawn, i don't doubt that anyone will see things differently than i do, even atheists. i outlined with your quotes, language that will push people from you, not attract. i'm not debating you, shawn. and, i won't have the appeal to be hearded with jess. atheism is NOT a gang or a doctrine.
if you find nothing of merit in what i've said, disregard it. surely you can understand that you categorize someone as "worth talking to" and of those worthy, they are "opponent[s]".
either way, i only read this article to give you another look. in stephen drain's comments, i held you with distain. not in a rush to judge, i am here...only to find it warranted. *i* am looking, shawn. and, so are others. i simply find you defending and justifying what you've said akin to an unexperienced, new husband who cannot understand that his wife just wants to be understood and appreciated. to that i can only hope your marriage has matured since those days; lest you remain divorced from all who disagree with you.
cheers
Steve--clearly there is a miscommunication between us. Simple text dialogue has a severe limitation. I never quite took from your comments that you were trying to be helpful (is that right?).
By the same token, beyond having to make too many caveats that would bog down a smooth flowing article, I am not even sure why you would claim that I "categorize someone as "worth talking to" " The words "worth talking to" did not exist in my article. If you took it that way i would suggest that you are reading into my article. And I actually wrote that I do talk to other types of skeptics. I think an atheist inclined toward philosophy would be less interested in talking to a Christian not conversant in that.
Clearly I will not satisfy every reader.
take care,
ROF...
Shawn, did you know that all black people stink? It's a fact. "At least" the ones I know. And get this, just like you, I find it hard to find the "right" ones to talk to too. Generally, I just hang with the more "mocha" kind that can half-way understand what it's like to be kinda white, or at least can kinda imagine what it could be like.
Are we clear? I think you totally missed this guy's point.
Drexler, your comment unfortunately belies a less than charitable reading of my article. See my comment above.
It is too bad that writing the obvious--that I would enjoy talking (and have!) with an atheist open to dialogue or knowing enough about Christian doctrine--is so offense to both of you.
take care,
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