Druggies often use the Netherlands as an example of how things "should" be (regarding marijuana and other drug use). Note that legalizers do not tell you about how it is for some ... the problems and the backlash that has begun.
While viewing the slide show, note the "museum" and note also that it links Hemp (which legalizers deny) with marijuana and hashish. There's beauty, but keep the truth in perspective – that Holland was once, the world’s wealthiest nation and that it has been a brutal colonial power throughout history. It's common for drug use to begin as a societies dominance and success begins to crumble.
One colonized island, not far from American shores, is Aruba ... Holland's replacement for Havana ... known by some for its' drugs, corruption, and partying.
The permissive nature demeans those enslaved, on display to ensnare others into a lifestyle of corruption and control.
The Netherlands
- Due to international pressure on permissive Dutch cannabis policy and domestic complaints over the spread of marijuana "coffee shops," the government of the Netherlands has reconsidered its legalization measures.
- After marijuana became normalized, consumption nearly tripled – from 15 per cent to 44 per cent – among 18 to 20 year-old Dutch youth. [ 1 ]
- As a result of stricter local government policies, the number of cannabis "coffeehouses" in the Netherlands was reduced – from 1,179 in 1997 [ 2 ] to 737 in 2004, a 37 per cent decrease in 7 years. [ 3 ]
- About 70 per cent of Dutch towns now have a zero-tolerance policy toward cannabis cafes. [ 4 ] It’s mainly in corrupt, permissive Amsterdam where mankind’s vices are out of control.
- In August 2004, after local governments began clamping down on cannabis "coffeehouses" seven years earlier, the government of the Netherlands formally announced a shift in its cannabis policy through the United National International Narcotics Control Board (INCB). According to "an inter-ministerial policy paper on cannabis, the government acknowledged that ‘cannabis is not harmless’ – neither for the abusers, nor for the community."
- Netherlands has decided to reduce the number of coffee shops (especially those near border areas and schools), closely monitor drug tourism, and implement an action plan to discourage cannabis use. This public policy change brings the Netherlands "closer towards full compliance with the international drug control treaties with regard to cannabis." [ 5 ]
"... there are young people who abuse soft drugs . . . particularly those that have a high THC content. The place that cannabis takes in their lives becomes so dominant they don’t have space for the other important things in life. They crawl out of bed in the morning, grab a joint, don’t work, smoke another joint. They don’t know what to do with their lives."
Dr. Ernest Bunning, formerly with holland’s ministry of Health and a principal proponent of that nation’s liberal drug philosophy
[ 1 ] "What Americans Need to Know about Marijuana," ONDCP, Page 10.
[ 2 ] Dutch Health, Welfare and Sports Ministry Report. 23 April 2004.
[ 3 ] INTRAVAL Bureau for Research & Consultancy. "Coffeeshops in the Netherlands 2004." Dutch Ministry of Justice. June 2005 http://www.intraval.nl/en/b/45.html
[ 4 ] Id.
[ 5 ] International Narcotics Control Board. "INCB Welcomes ‘Crucial and Significant Change in Dutch Cannabis Policy.’" United Nations Information Service. March 2, 2005. The action plan to discourage cannabis use includes elements such as drug prevention campaigns, mass-media anti-drugs campaign, increased treatment efforts to cannabis users, and encouragement of administrative and criminal law enforcement efforts. See also: "International Narcotics Control Board Annual Report Focuses on Need to Integrate Drug Demand, Supply Strategies." SOC/NAR/924 Press Release. 3 February 2005 See: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2005/socnar924.doc.htm
“Press Briefing by International narcotics Control Bd.” See: http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2005/INC_Briefing_050301.doc.htm
(March 18, 2005)
(Much of the information in this article came from the DEA.)
Comments
first go to amsterdam, then learn a little about their political system and history.
then, i'll listen to you.
from the perspective of someone who lived in amsterdam for six years, you are way off on your views. You obviously know nothing and are using amsterdam as an example.
There's no room here to explain, but i'll try to make it quick. John's reasoning for the backlash against MJ is completely wrong. The reason coffeshops were getting shut down was because they were violating the law, and because amsterdam was becoming weed-central (the only westernized country where it is openly accepted, logically it would be MJ central), and the govt wanted to bring in more normal tourists. also, due to 9/11 a right-wing goverment was elected that decided to crack down a little.
the thing is, it's never going to be completely legal or illegal in the netherlands. The dutch laws forbid prohibition as much as american laws uphold free speech.
John- Here's an idea. Since you will no longer respond in the comments section (actually, I see your point, I'd be angry at someone using my name) and we have an issue with your deleting any comment you don't agree with why don't we turn this into a moderated forum. We have to register and log in to comment with a third party in charge of deleting posts that violate policy (that would make me happy). That way no-one could post in your name (that should make you happy). Then we could once again actually have a two way exchange (which one would hope would make everyone happy). How about? Sound fair? I'm willing to take the first step John (not Joh N or Goebbels). If your willing to make a go of it and actually debate your stand on the issues I'm willing to play nice. The ball's in your court.
(Fernando Henrique Cardoso, continued.)
"Continuing the drugs war with more of the same is ludicrous. What is needed is a serious debate that will lead to the adoption of more humane and more effective strategies to deal with the global drug problem. Earlier this year the Latin American Commission on Drugs and Democracy, which I co-chaired with the former president of Colombia, Cesar Gaviria, and the former president of Mexico, Ernesto Zedillo, released the first high-level statement ever to endorse harm-reduction generally and DECRIMINALISATION OF MARIJUANA SPECIFICALLY."(F. H. Cardoso, "The war on drugs has failed", The Observer, Sept 6, 2009)
English: "DRUGGIES often use the Netherlands as an example of how things "should" be (regarding marijuana and other drug use). Note that LEGALIZERS do not tell you about how it is for some ... the problems and the backlash that has begun."
Another "DRUGGIE LEGALIZER" rears his head. This time Fernando Henrique Cardoso, president of Brazil 1995-2003
This is from Cardoso's piece in this Sunday's The Observer (Guardian newspaper), "The war on drugs has failed. Now we need a more humane strategy." Cardoso writes,
"It is time to admit the obvious. The "war on drugs" has failed, at least in the way it has been waged so far. In Latin America, the "unintended" consequences have been disastrous. Thousands of people have lost their lives in drug-associated violence. Drug lords have taken over entire communities. Misery has spread. Corruption is undermining fragile democracies..."
7) Holland, once a world power...just like Spain, Portugal, France, England, and Rome. And just like Spain, Portugal, France, England, and Rome it lost that position decades if not centuries before Hollands current drug policy. Lots of countries have been a world power at some point, most all of them as draconian in their thinking as you.
5) Yes John, please note the Cannabis lollipops. You are always whining about
"smoked marijuana" and the byproducts of combustion. Yet when a safer alternative is
offered you whine about that. These cannabis lollipops are for adult consumption,
just like the tequila lollipops I've seen sold in this country. Another pathetic
attempt to demonize Cannabis. Yet another reason to hysterically screech "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!", the prohibitionists desperate last ditch knee-jerk response when
they run short on logic.
6) Ooh, look at the pretty flowers in the park! Pretty flowers that Cannabis is trying to hook on drugs. Pretty flowers that hang their head in shame over Holland's drug policy. Pretty flowers that don't have a single thing to do with this article. I'm betting that you couldn't find Cannabis in the park, but Tulips are nearly as evil, right John? Are Tulips a "gateway flower" leading to drug abuse, crime, debauchery, and immorality? THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
The slide show- 1) What does legal prostitution have to do with cannabis?
Prostitution was legal long before the decriminalization of cannabis.
2) What do sail powered ships have to do with cannabis OR world trade?
3) a- Yes, people ride scooters in Europe, people of all ages, not just the youth,
gas is much more expensive and scooters get great mileage. b- a museum that has
displays on two strains of the same plant. A plant prohibitionists decided to link,
forcing us re-legalizers to bring up both since your side decided ANY plant in the
cannabis family was the "devil's weed". WATCH OUT! That rope/cloth/paper is a
gateway drug! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
4) Ooh, castles! Just like in England, Scotland, Wales, France, Germany, Belgium,
Poland, Hungary, and all the rest of Europe. These were military installations John,
not displays of wealth. What do you want to bet that Holland now has Airbases, Army
bases, and defended ports for their Navy?
con
The comment on "scooters" was deleted, as it was accepted as correct. : )
Prostitution and drug use; studies show most prostitutes, especially street prostitutes, in the U.S. and Europe are drug addicts, mostly crack and heroin. Many pimps are also drug dealers. Some drug addicts use prostitution to sustain their habit while pimps use drug to addict girls to make it easier to put them on the street. Many strippers are also addicts.
*MJ is not actually legal in the Netherlands--it is decriminalized. Note that as in Netherlands coffee houses grew out of control, in California pot dispensaries have become an issue for many cities, who are putting moratoriums on them or denying permits. It is out of control in LA.
Now those who are commenting about "the children" need to know that this is a failing strategy for legalizers to put down concerns about youth drug use as 95% of parents, even if they used mj, don't want their own kids to use. Yes, mj is correlated with other drug use, but it is not a harmless drug as stated by the Dutch official.
at dave: 1. Cannabis is LESS HARMFUL than alcohol or tobacco...not harmless
2.correlation does not imply causation
And where did you pull this from? "as 95% of parents, even if they used mj, don't want their own kids to use" can we get some facts to back that up?
The more readily available marijuana is, the more like a user is to do that and nothing else. Readily available marijuana, could easily explain Holland's decline in history. If its youth are just smoking joints all day, as I've seen in countless patients, then the country would decline as well. I know I'm a doctor.
charles, I know you are john.
Holland ended it's "decline" (if you want to call it that - it's still one of the world's biggest economic centers) - around a hundred years before MJ was even considered an issue. As a matter of fact, since MJ was decriminalized, the economy has improved (due to tourism) productivity has gone up, and crime has come down. the reality is the opposite of what john is claiming.
also, marijuana is much harder for youths to aquire in holland than the U.S. The only place it's readily available is the coffeshops, and they are extremely strict with checking ID's. one infraction could cost them the shop. Here in the U.S, any 7th grader can get you some weed on a few hour's notice.
furthermore, the dutch have a taboo againt all-day smokers. if you are one, dont expect to have a social life, and expect to be labeled a "junkie" - same thing any alchoholic, crackhead, or heroin feind is labeled.
Charles is full of it. I don't believe he is a doctor for one single minute. No doctor who is a man of sense anyway, goes around saying "I am an expert on all things because I am a doctor". Even if you really are a doctor, you say "I should know because I am a doctor" like we are supposed to therefore accept your ideas as though they were lightning bolts from God sent to inform us of the truth of the matter. Being a physician (presumably) makes you an expert at healing the sick. It certainly does not make you an expert at social policy.
A case in point is your assertion that decriminalized marijuana could "easily explain Hollands fall from power in history". HAH!!! Holland ceased to be a potent force in history LONG before recreational use of marijuana even came into vogue in Europe. You may be a fine healer Charles. I would suggest though, that you leave the history to those who have actually read books about it.
The dutch have a long history of tolerance. The laws are not centered around allowing hedonism for hedonistic reasons. In a nutshell, it's like this: for a few hundred years, there were two groups of dutch: the protestants and catholics. for a little while, there was alot of violence. eventually, they learned to accept each other. This turned into a dutch tradition of tolerance: e.g they harbored jews and helped them escape in WWII. The dutch cultural principals revolve around tolerance and personal liberty. the law is based on (direct translation) "inconvenience". if you inconvenience someone (as in, hurt them, impede their daily functioning) then you break the law. Marijuana smokers and coffeshops do not inconvenience the public. The general public "inconveniences" marijuana smokers AND ITSELF by enforcing prohibition. therefore, the most "convenient" thing is to live and let live - not legalize but TOLERATE.
Charles: "... I know I'm a doctor."
Good technique! (Propaganda technique, I mean.) Crass appeal to authority. Reminds me of "the Father of Public Relations" Edward Bernays. As his wikipedia article puts it:
"One of Bernays' favorite [propaganda] techniques for manipulating public opinion was the indirect use of 'third party authorities' to plead his clients' causes. 'If you can influence the leaders, either with or without their conscious cooperation, you automatically influence the group which they sway', he said. In order to promote sales of bacon, for example, he conducted a survey of physicians and reported their recommendation that people eat heavy breakfasts..."
For many issues, one can find a "doctor" or a "physician" to give expert testimony - stating exactly what one wants. (See: Margaret Hagen's 1996 book: Whores of the Court.)
Show me some actual studies - not some government-approved opinions from the king's kept court physicians.
Dave: "Many pimps are also drug dealers."
re: "drug dealers", "pimps", "dealers" - Drug war propaganda insinuates drugs are evil, because they are linked with hated groups. (Hated Groups (propaganda theme 1) )
Dave: "Some drug addicts use prostitution to sustain their habit while pimps use drug to addict girls to make it easier to put them on the street."
re: "drug addicts", "addict", "addicts", "pimps" - The rhetoric of prohibition will try to use labeling and guilt by association to link drugs and drug users with hated groups. (Hated Groups (propaganda theme 1) ) re: "prostitution" - Prohibitionists forever claim that children are corrupted by drugs, and this is why adult users must be punished harshly. (Children Corrupted (propaganda theme 5) )
Dave: "Many strippers are also addicts."
re: "addicts", "strippers" - Drugs are linked with groups of people who are already seen as deviant or shameful. (Hated Groups (propaganda theme 1) )
Dave: "Prostitution and drug use; studies show most prostitutes, especially street prostitutes, in the U.S. and Europe are drug addicts, mostly crack and heroin."
re: "drug addicts", "addicts" - Prohibition rhetoric often attempts to associate hated groups with targeted drugs. (Hated Groups (propaganda theme 1) ) re: "drug use" - Prohibitionist propagandists repeatedly assert that "use is abuse." Details about "using" as opposed to "abusing" drugs are ignored. (Use is Abuse (propaganda theme 4) ) re: "Prostitution", "prostitutes" - "Chemicals have long been inextricably linked in prohibitionist literature with the sexual corruption of young people." [W.White,1979] (Children Corrupted (propaganda theme 5) )
Dave: "... studies show most ... Many pimps are also .... Some drug addicts use prostitution ... Many strippers are also addicts."
This is classic weasel wording.
The insinuation is that if pot is legalized, your daughters will become whores. Of course, such an assertion (if explicitly made) would be ridiculous on the face of it. Hence the heavy use of insinuation and weaseling.
Stealthy as a socialist, it slithers up our shores
Turning all our children into hooligans and whores!
This smoking bowl of evil bears the choking stench of sin!
It burrows like a weevil under tender
Christian skin!
-- Reefer Madness! the musical
ACTUALLY, if you knew something about dutch law, you'd know pimps are not and cannot be drug dealers. Dutch pimps do not want their clients going in to see their whores nodding out or all coked or cracked up. Marijuana is not a problem, but pimps dont sell it because they'd have to split their time, expend tons more money for security, and compete with the coffeshops (which is impossible, people want quality control whcih coffeshops provide) Hard drugs are a liability to the brothel, and a danger to the girls. As a matter of fact, anyone observed to be doing hard drugs or believed to be under the influence of cocaine or heroin is promptly booted out of coffeshops/hotels/brothels.
Ecstacy is a whole other ball game, and it's a problem in amsterdam as with all of the rest of europe.
yes, drug dealers sell hard drugs in the red light district. pimps do not. pimps are usually against it. if a drug dealer stands outside a brothel, the pimp calls the cops or personal security.
maybe john, you should look into the statistics of unemployment, education, and violent crime in the netherlands.
dispite the horrible immoral act of making marijuana commercially available in storefronts (but not quite legal), Violence in amsterdam is lower than any american or canadian city, and one of the lowest in europe. unemployment (until the recent crisis) was non-existent for EU citizens, and everyone is well educated. high-school dropouts are unheard of, as are people who dont finish university.
also, if you want to point fingers at lazy people, point it at france. The french are legally entitled to more leisure time than anyone in any other country. They are the laziest country on earth, yet Marijuana is next to impossible to find there (hash is a little more common, but still rare), and the french have a thriving economy.
you preconceptions on marijuana, laziness, and the effects of either on an economy are completely unfounded.
Dave: "... studies show most ... Many pimps are also .... Some drug addicts use prostitution ... Many strippers are also addicts."
Oh yeah - marihuana is the reason. Why, haven't you heard? -
The movie Reefer Madness, 1936:
[G-Man] MR. WYATT
Then there is the most vicious kind
of case. Here.
He hands [School Principal] Dr. Carroll a clipping.
MR. WYATT
In Michigan, a young girl,
seventeen years old - a reefer
smoker - taken in a raid IN THE
COMPANY OF FIVE YOUNG MEN.
Dr. Carroll frowns.
- - -
MARIHUANA 1934 -
``parties usually ending up in wild carousals, some-times with men joining the orgies.''
The Union Signal - Woman's Christian Temperance Union
dutch says: "yet Marijuana is next to impossible to find there [france] (hash is a little more common, but still rare), and the french have a thriving economy. "
marijuana is rare, it's true. once in a while someone brings in stuff from amsterdam or some vintner grows a crop of low-grade for his friends. Hash is quite common though. much of it is moroccan, and usually low quality. Hash is fairly popular among the youth in france, but is definitely not common at all among anyone over 30 (maybe why dutch had a hard time finding some). The french simply have another preference: Wine. they drink it all day like americans drink sodas, and it's accepted. A thirteen year old can buy a bottle of wine and not have any problems. Hash is not taboo, just not fashionable. It's decriminalized for the most part in france too - the police tend to just make you stomp it out or drop it in the sewer if they catch you with it.
that slide show proves what now?
It proves there are castles, cannabis stores, boats, and scooters in Holland
How exactly are 19th century ships indicative of Holland's world trade? maybe you should get a picture of the real harbor, with the cargo ships that make shipping one of Holland's greatest economic engines.
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