Do airport body scanners violate child porn laws? That question was asked by the respected San Diego Union-Tribune to readers on their Sign On San Diego general news forums. The responses were predictably heated, but thoughtful. It was almost like asking an alcoholic if they would like a gin or a vodka martini. Here's some typical comments, with the more wacky ones left for you to discover online:
Larshus began with this quote, "NEW YORK (CBS/AP) British airports are largely in a holding pattern over the introduction of full body scanners, amid concerns the technology may breach child pornography and child protection laws, which ban the creation of indecent images of children, according to a UK paper, The Guardian."
He went on to say, "These scans are essentially a full strip search. Would you submit yourself to these if they ended up here in the States? There's no way in hell I would.
1st) If you're not scanning the kids then it's worthless.
2nd) I won't give one more single right away and neither should you.
3rd) If you would do this, then I guess you will submit to a full cavity search. Where does it end? Your thoughts!"
CAPTIONS: (ABOVE LEFT) Passengers wait to be checked in a new body security scan system at Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam (Photo Credit - AP); (BELOW RIGHT) A backscatter machine undergoing a test at Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix, AZ (Photo Credit - Tom Tingle-AP); (BELOW LEFT) Image from full body radio scan (Image Credit - Wikipedia)
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Delog61 said, "So, now, you are suggesting the 4th amendment covers people for their RIGHT to fly? You see, if there is no RIGHT to fly, then, there is no issues. You see, you don't have a right to fly. So, if you don't want to be scanned, do not fly. You will NOT have any privacy issues. If you decide you want to fly, and we all know it is NOT a right, and you walk in to the airport with the intent to fly, the airlines have a RIGHT to demand you follow their rules, regulations and or policies to board their plane. If you do NOT agree with the terms, guess what. YOU do NOT have a right to refuse. You do have a right to use other means of transportation." That was one of the more reasoned and moderate replies.
Coronado said, "I'm sure a month after all the scanners are operational TSA screeners will be demanding hazardous duty pay for having to look at thousands if images of obese people everyday."
KimPossible said, "The body scanners are non-invasive, deliver a scant amount of possible radiation, are not saved unless someone is suspicious, and are viewed separately by a very limited amount of security personnel. The airlines have to know what is coming onto the plane. It's just the world we know live in. Had that Dec. 25 plane bombing attempt been successful and the plane blown to shreds, we'd be wishing they had used body scanning."
Larshus replied, "Maybe you would, but I wouldn't. I would look at it as those people died so we could
remain free. We are at war you know and the targets are Americans, not just military. I'm not for changing the way I live for terrorists. Nor, do I want to live under so much security that everyone and my Grandma has to be felt up, prodded, and humiliated to prevent an attack. To live in that world is worse than death.
We are witnessing the conception of an authoritarian overseer that is being put into place under the guise that it is for our protection. And maybe at first it will be for protection, it seems plausible. But, I believe that compliance of this type of search and intrusion will allow the same type of intrusion in other everyday parts of your life. By allowing this to continue I see a bleak world where everything is monitored and privacy will be a long forgotten thought in the near future."
Dah-Jur quoted history, and contemporary politics by saying, "It is weird how "conservatives" and "liberals" usually switch sides philosophically when it comes to civil liberties, i.e., gay marriage, abortion, full body scanners. If the GOP weren't such a bunch of pansies, they wouldn't be so concerned with other people's security and homophobia."
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
CAPTIONS: (ABOVE RIGHT) A passenger is checked in a security scan at Schiphol Airport (Image Credit - AP); (BELOW LEFT) Eight year old Mikey Hicks (Photo Credit - AP)
According to the Minneapolis Airport/Airlines Examiner, one child who definitely will be scanned is little 8 year Mikey Hicks, a Cub Scout who lives in New Jersey, and just happens to have his name listed on the TSA No Fly List, along with about 13,500 others. Mikey has been on the list since he was an infant, not because of anything that he has done or said, but because his name matches that of a suspected terrorist.
If that's not troubling enough, consider that full body scanners did not stop the lock down of Newark Liberty International Airport Terminal C for 6 hours on January 2, nor the evacuation of Terminal 8 at JFK International Airport, on Saturday, January 16, because someone opened and exited through a door from an American Airlines first-class lounge into a secured portion of the terminal.
Both recent incidents, and the enormous inconvenience and economic impact that they caused could have easily been avoided through greater vigilance on the part of TSA, and if necessary, reserve military or supplemental security guards, such as Port Authority police at key points.
Tell us your comments on full body scanners, their impact on your personal liberties and possible child pornography, and your reaction to recent security breaches. Please leave comments below or by email and subscribe to get future updates.
Comments
If a full body scan can safe hundreds of life's and assure we will reach our destination safe so be it. Its nothing our parents or doctors haven't seen in real life so whats a ex ray picture hurt. After all we were born naked.
So why stop at the airport? Why not install full-body scanners outside the door to every home in the nation?
Why stop at the front door? Why not install cameras into everyone's home to catch everyone at every angle. After all, we were born naked. And ignorant too, it would appear.
Excellent dialogue on the pros and cons of this complex issue.
Good job of presenting the full scope of this security issue..kudos.
Cheers..
First of all, we all know that full body scanners are a necessity and will eventually be everywhere. If you don't like them, don't fly. And this is coming from the liberal in our group. ACLU aside, they even know that this equipment will save countless lives. Secondly, I'd like to be the operator of the female body scanner equipment when the job become available.
I agree that we don't have a "right" to fly, so if you don't want to be full body scanned, don't fly. I am for anything that keeps potential terrorists off our planes as I would like to feel confident I will reach my destination without the plane being bombed or otherwise taken over.
I saw the story about Mikey on the news yesterday; so bizarre.
I agree that flying is not a right but in some cases, a necessity. It is unfortunate that full body scans are also a necessity but we have to do what we have to do to keep everyone safe. I'd rather strangers saw my bits than have a terrorist blow up my plane. Quite frankly, women are used to having people see everything with our mammograms and well woman exams. LOL!
As long as pedophiles are not the ones operating the body scanners, I don't see why it should make a difference. Children will probably think it's cool to be scanned.
Now if they can kill two birds with one stone by diagnosing health problems with those scanners, that would get everyone on board. ;-) "The good news is that you don't appear to be carrying any weapons and can board the plane; the bad news is that we detected arthritis in your left hip."
but we have to do what we have to do to keep everyone safe
How do you not see that this line of thinking leads inexorably to more and more invasions of privacy and the erosion of personal choice? Are you really that unthinking? Do what we have to do, really? Okay, well, what we have to do is embed a small tracking device under your skin so the authorities can know where you are at any and all times.
ITS TO KEEP US SAFE!
Still think its okay?
The good thing about this is that it will actually up the background check for people that run the scanners. It is a necessarily part of security. Joel, I opened this article and thought, "Wow, I hadn't even thought of that!".
Great read.
I truly don't understand the controversy about this, even after reading the "both sides" presentation you've so ably put together for us. No worries; it's not the first (nor the last) time I've not been plugged in to the Human Controversy Machine. ;-)
I think we have a right to have our privacy respected no matter if we are child or adult. Everyone is so quick to hand over their rights when they are in fear. To quote the great Ben Franklin "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." This is one of out founding fathers. Maybe we should rethink handing over the keys to the kingdom so quickly because we are living in fear.
If people seeing people naked is no big deal, why is there so much fuss over nudity in films and on the web. Personally, I care to choose who sees me without my clothes on. These people are neither my mother or my doctor.
Bobbi....you are a riot with your comment LOL.........Good article, Joel. Very thought-provoking. I'm do not fly frequently, so I don't have an opinion at this time, but this is certainly going to make me think about what kind of world we have now inherited. Unreal.
I am on the fence about these full body scanners. Never mind about the kids, what about the adults. There are still other ways to scan. I'd rather see that in full effect first. And I agree that closer vigilance in the airports is called for. But, in the end, they will do what they do and we're all at the mercy of securities final decision despite how ever much time or uncomfortable it makes us feel.
What an interesting twist on the scanner issue. It's ridiculous that an 8 year old gets caught up in advanced security screening.
i don't know how i feel about it - i never thought of this issue.
who cares...some of you idiots act like it is a full color image of your body. Its an X-ray picture for Pete's sake...
It is NOT a simple X-Ray image. It IS an high resolution image taken of you in the buff that is color inverted to appear like that on the machine. These inverted images, that supposedly can't be saved, are all over the internet for anyone with the lowest level of photo editing software to do a "select all" and "invert colors" for a nice nude picture of people in full color. If you don't go for the X-Ray you get the pat-down, and many people are in jail for doing less.
who cares...some of you idiots act like it is a full color image of your body. Its an X-ray picture for Pete's sake...
Lets just Break it down into pure numbers. 3000+ people were killed in the 9/11 attacks. So therefore a potential 400 million people in America alone must be submitted to Full Body scans which, lets be honest, show everything under your clothes. Keep in mind technology WILL improve making this image even better. Hitler killed more people than you can fathom and you didnt see the absurdities like the patriot act and full body scanners put into effect. Wake up people this has nothing to do with terrorism! your more likely to get hit by a car on your way to starbucks than die in a terrorist related attack. Lol.......
No matter your feeling on the subject of Security or the need for Full body scans. The law today states that you can not create naked images of children under 18 for sexual gratification, or performing sexual acts. The clarity of some scans could be clear enough to sexually intrige some TSA employee somewhere sometime. The scanners are just as illegal as your 13 year old daughter's naked texts to boys at school. The law is the law. The TSA is forcing pasengers to submit to naked photography under duress. You have no choice. You already paid for the tickets, you have to fly, You have to be photographed in the nude or be groped. Any consent given under duress will not hold up in court. If you feel violated after or during the TSA unlawful search, file sexual assault charges against TSA, officers and the Airlines.
I have tickets to fly in a few days and it makes me sick to think this may happen when I baord the plane in San Diego. Not only for me but for my mother also.
The TSA needs to release full resolution pictures of actors in these scans to show the publice what the scans really reveal, so far only low resolution photocopies have been shown, not real images taken from the real monitors. I believe the TSA is afraid to show the true pictures.
Flying under protest for the last time, until this is resolved. I will be driving to Vail in Feb 2011 NOT FLYING, Listen Up United / American Ailines that is $1,000 out of your pocket.
Obviously, the whole scenario on airport security checks, whether it be scanners or pat down body search, depends on a person's level of intelligence. As with all things that could benefit the general public's safety, there are always those who will claim violations of their rights.
If this type of security checking is on a temporary basis... let's say until the end of the war on terrorism, it is fine with me. It is also fine with me to have my skeletal image scanned, or to endure the pat down search. What isn't fine with me is that some idiot on my flight will have refused the security check in any form and could quite possibly have a questionable reason for doing so.
As for going ahead and flying just because you've paid for the ticket, that is a bunch of crap. I would walk away in a nano-second if I thought there was a problem with another passenger.
It's easy to extrapolate the outcome of a situation such as losing rights over something that is a safety issue. Paranoia kicks in from lack of concern for others. Everybody wants to have things "their way", and really don't care what happens to everyone else. It's a sad, sad world that has to read all kinds of ulterior motives in issues such as measures to ensure the safety of it's citizens.
Perhaps you have the right to hold your own life and safety in such low esteem, but you do not have the right to jeprodize my safety and my life.
Comment originally posted on Linkedin AviationLink on Sunday, 21 November 2010 at 11:20 AM PST:
It all comes down to this. You cannot have freedom and security together. If you want more security in flight then you HAVE to give up your freedom. You want to not be touched or scanned then you cannot expect the airlines to give you a worry free flight from terrorism let alone guarantee a safe flight from mechanical malfunction?
They are supplying a service, a service! Yet we expect the airline, the stewardess, the pilots all to kiss our butt before we receive this service and not inconvenience us in any way? To me it is pretty simple. If I am PIC (Pilot in Command) then before I fly YOU anywhere, you WILL do it my way, by my rules, or we don't fly. Now that is pretty harsh! It seems to me that we as consumers forget that airlines are suppling a service, a service we can choose to BUY or not. All of these government run agencies and activists need to understand you want to fly then here are the rules. You don't like my rules then use a different form of transportation. I know that is a very narrow minded approach, but I am pretty narrow minded. :)
Comment originally posted on Linkedin AviationLink on Sunday, 21 November 2010 at 10:29 AM PST:
Please see my own commentary:
http://christinenegroni.blogspot.com/2010/11/full-body-scanner-reveals-a...
Hi Christine,
Your remarks are beautifully literate and compelling, but I believe off the mark.
The point is not about whining and complaining, or even about the puritanical nature of the American psyche, which evidently has never used a unisex bathroom in France.
The issue is about arbitrary authority. We don't like being told what to do. We also don't like a "one size fits all" mentality.
As has been said by others, 4 ounces of toothpaste or shampoo does not bring down airplanes.
When I worked for the Department of the Navy, I took a friend for lunch at the naval base on Coronado, CA. After our meal, we took a hike around the facility, right up to their runway where multi-million dollar fighters and other aircraft were parked. There were no barriers, no full body scanners, no TSA pat downs. The government evidently trusted anyone who had a pass to enter the base.
Why can't we use intelligence to evaluate our commercial aviation passengers in the same way?
Why do we have to concede victory to the terrorists by degrading our humanity, our constitutional rights, our freedom and independence?
Of course, the world is changing. It always has changed, and will continue to do so.
Those of us who remember going to the airport, walking to the gate, and getting on a plane, without passing through any form of security, are not hallucinating, or from the distant past. This all happened in our lifetime.
There needs to be a balance, and I don't think that Standard Operating Procedures are better than critical thinking outside the box, individual initiative, and probing passengers' minds instead of their body cavities.
Thank you for a great read. I love your style.
Cheers,
Joel
Joel Siegfried
National Desk - Airlines/Airport Examiner
Email: ecto@cox.net
Examiner Home Page: http://www.examiner.com/airlinesairport-in-national/joel-siegfried
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Original comment posted on Linkedin AviationLink Group on 23 November 2010:
Thanks Joel for the kind words. I'll be posting a follow up on this subject shortly. To your question "Why do we have to concede victory to the terrorists by degrading our humanity, our constitutional rights, our freedom and independence?" Degradation must be a state of mind. I've not experienced such degradation - even at the airport - and therefore don't feel the terrorists can claim to have accomplished that.
Christine
http://christinenegroni.blogspot.com/2010/11/fuzzy-body-contours-and-cle...
Original comments posted on Linkedin AviationLink Group on 28 November 2010 at 8:09 A.M. PST:
I personally have stated for years that it is not the front of the airport that scares me. It is the back of the airport. Endless people have direct access to the aircraft. Cleaners, the catering kitchens, baggage people, etc. Look what just happened with Fed Ex and the boxes en route to Chicago? And that was a cargo transport aircraft.
I trained a woman that told me she quit the airline she was flying for after the following incident. She was sitting on the back jump seat on heavy equipment from Europe to the US landing in Newark, New Jersey. It was a hard landing and she heard a crash from the aft lav. When she could get up, she opened the lav door and the mirror had fallen off the wall, and taped behind it were butcher knives. She went into flight operations and quit!
Other previous commercial F/A's we have trained transitioning over to business aviation told me they found small holes drilled behind the mirror in First Class lav directly forward of the cock pit. Holes that would allow gas to take the pilots down. Another told me they found a guns in the food and beverage carts and another told me she found one taped to the bottom of the liquor cart.
A few years ago John Glenn a past astronaut and now government official come through TSA and they ripped him and his bags apart. Also the past US Senator Ted Kennedy. That is INSANE! They are misdirected and not keeping up with the actual scans that they do have implemented.
I went through with a small bottle of water mistakenly out of Philadelphia Airport. It was buried in the bottom of my leather carry on flight bag and I did not know it was there. I found it when I got to the hotel and unpacked my flight bag. They should start with perfecting the equipment and STAFFING that they have now. If I get a full body scan, I want the results sent to my primary physician!
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