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Virginia lawmakers lining up to repeal new driving fees

CommentsComment on this article
Dec 6, 2007 12:00 AM (362 days ago) by Joe Rogalsky, The Examiner
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Related Topics: WASHINGTON
Facing criticism from motorists, Virginia legislators are moving to repeal penalties for bad drivers. – Brig Cabe/Examiner file

Facing criticism from motorists, Virginia legislators are moving to repeal penalties for bad drivers. – Brig Cabe/Examiner file
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - Virginia legislators, spurred by the earfuls of criticism they received from outraged motorists, are moving swiftly to repeal unpopular financial penalties for bad drivers.

General Assembly members, who will start their session in January, already have filed three bills to nix the “abusive-driver” fees.

Tens of thousands of upset Virginians signed an online petition opposing the fees shortly after the sanctions took effect July 1. Chiefly, foes object to the fees’ stiffness ($750 to $3,000 depending on the transgression) and are angry that the penalties apply only to motorists with Virginia driver’s licenses.

Many lawmakers pledged to repeal the fees during this year’s legislative campaigns, but they will have to fight Gov. Tim Kaine, a Democrat, and House Speaker William Howell, R-Stafford.

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The two men support extending the sanctions to out-of-state motorists and limiting the offenses that carry the added punishment, but do not want to scuttle the fees, which were instituted to raise $65 million a year for road maintenance.

“I believe that the abusive-driver fees are going to save lives,” Howell told The Examiner.

A report released Wednesday by the legislature’s government-watchdog panel contradicts Howell. The Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission found the fees have had no effect on drivers’ behavior.

Reckless driving is down slightly, according to the commission, but arrests for drunken driving and speeding have risen since July.

“These fees were not put in place for safety, they were put in place to raise money,” said Sen. Linda Puller, D-Fairfax, who is one of two senators to introduce legislation to repeal the fees and refund penalties that have been paid.

Del. Lacey Putney, I-Bedford, was the first lawmaker this week to introduce anti-fee legislation. His bill would delete the section of state law authorizing the sanctions but would not return money to drivers.

Several motorists facing the fees successfully challenged the penalties’ constitutionality in the summer.

Appeals are pending in higher courts, which are waiting for the General Assembly to act in January or February before ruling.

jrogalsky@dcexaminer.com

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Comments from Examiner Readers

10:58 AM MST on Mon., Mar. 17, 2008 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
it has already cleared threw the goverment that this law be repealed,they say all that is left is for the gov to sighn it and its a done deal that was 3 weeks ago he still has not sighned it i think the people that have already spent there money out on these fees should file suit against the state of va for intrest on there money the state is holding up cause the gov hasent sighned it yet mabe that would help him over his writers block.

 1 agree | 3 disagree
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4:45 AM MST on Tue., Jan. 29, 2008 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Anti-Tyranny Virginian said:
Thomas Jefferson, Geroge Washington, and James Madison are rolling in their graves! It is disgusting how the elected government of the Commonwealth of Virginia operates now. They are too lazy to go to their respected constituents and explain to them why their is a need for increased revenue (taxes) for transportation improvements. Instead, they are lazy and abuse their power by making a tyranical law. VOTE ALL OF THE BUMS OUT!!! WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN!!!

 41 agree | 35 disagree
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8:34 PM MST on Tue., Jan. 8, 2008 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
will be a very good day for the people of va , when 2010 comes around and gov kaine is no longer the gov of va,he has done nothing for va at all except pass trash bills that hurt everyone in va look at his record sence hes been in as gov,see for yourself.

 59 agree | 45 disagree
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7:31 PM MST on Mon., Jan. 7, 2008 re: "Virginia lawmakers lining up to repeal new driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
normal this subject has been pushed under the rugg the people of va are all mouth they do not follow threw to the end reps know that is what they count on and it works every time [va people are all mouth no action]i think some 1 has got to the news stations to not seen a word about these fees in a good while.

 81 agree | 75 disagree
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10:03 AM MST on Fri., Dec. 21, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
the state of va will be a much better place when kaines term is up and he is no longer gov he has done nothing but send bills threw that take more and more money out of the working peoples pocketts, look at his record and the bills he has sighned off on,then u see the truth about our so called gov.

 57 agree | 51 disagree
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10:07 PM MST on Sun., Nov. 18, 2007 re: "Opponents say fees will hurt the poor, result in unlicensed drivers"

 Examiner Reader said:
I disagree. This is not about poor drivers. This is about people having difficulty and the government just makes it harder for them. This is called "keeping the poor poor or shall I say poorer". If they had money, most of them wouldn't be with illegal or no tags! Then what happens? You fine them, take away their transportation and then they lose their jobs. It is about money/greed. Lets remember why cars were invented...to get from point A to B. They are now a necessity. A tag is all about money anyway. Georgia is one of the worst violators of this greed.

 100 agree | 101 disagree
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6:09 PM MST on Wed., Oct. 31, 2007 re: "Bad-driving fees issue could decide tight N.Va. General Assembly races"

 Examiner Reader said:
see people they are calling our bluff they pass junk bills like this and say to there selfs oh they talk but thats all we dont worrie bout loseing there vote it will blow over, i havent had a tickett in 25 years thats not the case the case is when they pass a bill that clearly screws the people and then try to make it look like a good thing and we are all stupid and just dont see then its time for them to go i am voteing against everyone in my district that voted yes to this bill,show them at the polls people we back up what we say.

 111 agree | 102 disagree
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7:31 AM MST on Wed., Oct. 31, 2007 re: "N.Va. GOP, Democrats quarrel over driver fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
Stumping , politicking , and reality are three different things, for you schmucks who say your against Davis, take a look at how many dems signed it IT was a compromise to raise money for the roads you want.... Kaine sign off he could have denied the bill or call it a Vito Corleone! Who found out she works for a DC law firm and ten hours a week? Okay bird brain she would have to drive ten hours just to work those ten hours and thats a 2o in my book Did you know her opponent is a skilled highly paid trial lawyer? Or did you not know that? Are you aware it was a lawyer who crafted this fees bill? Please take you heads from where the sun don't shine. The post smells bad of a peter, sans the sen. Her opponent is a no integrity lawyer must I say more. all of you can also say the same for Fairfax county when was the last time you saw anyone go free from speeding before this law was in effect? Never its the economy stupid, you want low taxes then you pay the fee

 110 agree | 105 disagree
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5:58 PM MST on Tue., Oct. 30, 2007 re: "Bad-driving fees issue could decide tight N.Va. General Assembly races"

 Examiner Reader said:
Senator Davis voted for the Civil Remedial Fees and I will be voting for her opponent next week. I intended to vote against her because of the fees which are not for "Bad Drivers" but apply to even "imperfect drivers" as subsection 4 of the fees law provides a $900 fine over three years for any moving or traffic violation not specifically addressed in the other fees sections that is identified in the motor vehicle statute. That means a civil remedial fee could be assessed for any minor violation, even burnt out brake lights. Senator Davis cemented my resolve to vote against her when she lied about her opponent about his gun control position and when I found out she works ten hours a week for a DC law firm, is paid more than $40,000 a year by them, and the law firm touts easy access to U.S. Representative Tom Davis (Senator Davis's husband) for their clients. I can just imagine why Rep. Davis gives the law firm's clients easy access. Definitely Grafty Old Perverts politicians both.

 117 agree | 89 disagree
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8:11 AM MST on Tue., Oct. 30, 2007 re: "Bad-driving fees issue could decide tight N.Va. General Assembly races"

 Examiner Reader said:
Tally ho ! These unconstitutional fees were the easy way out for the politicians that supported them. Now the voters can show them the easy way out. How can I get a list of elected officials that voted for these fees in the first place ?

 104 agree | 120 disagree
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7:55 PM MST on Thu., Oct. 18, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
rynolds and armstrong voted yes to these stupid driver fees and will not get my vote or my famileys vote ever again, the people in henry county have had enough crap we dont need any more, eaither do the job u were voted in to do represent the people for the better or move on and let some one else,these stupid fees have nothing to do with safety it just another stupid bill passed so politicians can stick there hands in the peoples pockett again take a look at the declineing houseing markett then u will see what sticking your hands in tax payers pocketts have got you they cant pay there house payments now keep on va will be a state of empty houses and the people will be gone then u can choke on va ..........

 114 agree | 90 disagree
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7:06 PM MST on Wed., Oct. 17, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
the people of va has stated there views about these fees they do not listen because they do not care what the people think they passed it and we will just have to like is their view point,a hundred and seventy seven thousand people have stated there views about this they do not listen so lets make them listen next month when we vote them out they were voted in office to to work for us the people but clearly they are working for their own agenda instead of ours show them when we sighned the petition to not vote for anyone that supports this kinda junk bill that we was seriouse not just blowing smoke time for change voteum all out...................

 102 agree | 92 disagree
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8:35 AM MST on Tue., Oct. 9, 2007 re: "N.Va. GOP, Democrats quarrel over driver fees"

 Working Hard in VA said:
Democrat Gov Kaine is the one that struck out-of- state drivers from the legislation and then signed it. Spread the blame where it needs to be.

 129 agree | 149 disagree
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7:52 AM MST on Tue., Oct. 9, 2007 re: "N.Va. GOP, Democrats quarrel over driver fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
I believe these fines are highly excessive and they should apply to all drivers not just VA residents. Lets spread the wealth to everyone or knock down those fees..

 130 agree | 131 disagree
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7:33 AM MST on Tue., Oct. 9, 2007 re: "N.Va. GOP, Democrats quarrel over driver fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
Working on it... yeah, right. If our politicians were serious (read that as honest) they would repeal these unconstitutional laws until such time as it includes out of state drivers. Really - what does unconstitutional mean to you? Campaign promisses mean nothing to me ... compaign actions do! I am tired of talking politicians. I want politicians that listen. Vote them out.

 122 agree | 136 disagree
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6:45 PM MST on Sun., Oct. 7, 2007 re: "Arlington judge rules Virginia’s abusive-driver fees unconstitutional"

 Examiner Reader said:
next month cant wait, the people of va are going to say goodbye to a bunch money grabbers, and correct the mistakes we made last election ,goodbye and good riddens.

 108 agree | 121 disagree
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9:25 AM MST on Sat., Sep. 15, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
have to ask yourself why is it some years the budget is fine then a year later ,they come up way short,sounds like some are spending were they shouldent be and if they are then that means they are not doing the job the people voted them into do ,so best thing to do in that case is voteum outget someone who will.

 129 agree | 105 disagree
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7:20 PM MST on Fri., Sep. 14, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
looks like va is gone be for democrat this time hello mark warner ,republicans can say good bye to va for awhile, the people of va will not be forgetting anytime soon how republican clowns made up traffic fees to burn us, in november republicans will not hold there seats ,how u like ya new traffic fees now ????.

 167 agree | 102 disagree
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6:50 PM MST on Thu., Sep. 13, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
the person under this must be a traffic lawyer or a politician. if he isent he should be he thinks like they do off the wall.

 144 agree | 112 disagree
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11:51 PM MST on Wed., Sep. 12, 2007 re: "Driving fees case expected to have statewide impact"

 Examiner Reader said:
The new law is fully constitutional and those that believe it is not know little about fundamental constitutional law. What was supposed to be a constitutional challenge and sure win for the Government ended with the Government caving in. The only thing this proves is that in Virginia you can hire pitbull lawyers and bulldoze your way through the courts. If you drive like a moron on the roads, pay your dues and be held accountable. Law abiding people do not expect the Johnny Cochrans and Thaddeus Furlongs of the world to save them - they take responsibility! Furlong, it seems is a former police officer from Fairfax County working now for Bose Law Firm - a team of police officers and prosecutors turned high price attorneys. What a world we live in when those who are taught to uphold the laws use their knowledge and experience to navigate guilty people around a system laden with cracks and loopholes! A disgrace to justice and fairness.

 136 agree | 131 disagree
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4:12 PM MST on Mon., Sep. 10, 2007 re: "Va. bad-driving fees may vary by region"

 Examiner Reader said:
mabe next if we gett pulled for a tickett they will just take our cars to settle the tickett ,but better be a pretty good car or else they will keep the car and we pull 30 days in jail besides,here officer take my escort and lock me up for 30 days i give up ,lmao

 126 agree | 162 disagree
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4:02 PM MST on Mon., Sep. 10, 2007 re: "Va. bad-driving fees may vary by region"

 Examiner Reader said:
they are looking at bill to turn mexico trucks lose on our highways and they say they put new fees on traffic to make our roads safe ,yea right i get a laugh outa that one.

 128 agree | 144 disagree
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3:57 PM MST on Mon., Sep. 10, 2007 re: "Va. bad-driving fees may vary by region"

 Examiner Reader said:
look at the laws they are passing goverment is trying its best to take all the peoples money,its as if they are trying to give this country to mexico and china, they want our roads to be in good shape when they start letting the trucks from mexico drive on it ,and they just want american people to pay for the roads not the immigrants so they will just target va taggs for now.

 149 agree | 137 disagree
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8:55 PM MST on Sun., Sep. 9, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
if gov kaine is so interested in nothern va's roads why dont he go work for the highway department there and quit trying to be a governer,he not very good at it ,do the people a favor and quit sir .

 134 agree | 115 disagree
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1:45 PM MST on Fri., Sep. 7, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
every time bill 3202 is mentioned by the politicians its always followed by nothern va , i say to them there is more to the state of va then just nothern va but to hear them 1 would think there wasent they pass a law to take money from people in the south to pour into nothern va roads on top of what they are already stealing from the people there then say oh the peoples upset they just dont understand , we understand more then u think u will see come election time to.

 172 agree | 100 disagree
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10:53 AM MST on Thu., Sep. 6, 2007 re: "Driving fees case expected to have statewide impact"

 Examiner Reader said:
if this bill is repealed they will just figure out some other way to ripp people off thats what they do all day instead of trying to help the people that vote them in they set and try to think of ways to ripp us off vote them out send a message we are tired of being ripped off, any that try to ripp us off are out we the people are tired of it, if this bill stands whats to stop them any time they decide they want to work on a project from makeing up a new law on anything else we the people do to fund it voteum out.

 143 agree | 147 disagree
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10:36 AM MST on Thu., Sep. 6, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
it is said that triple A is in favor of this bill if this is so i say to them do not ever send me or my wife anything from your company ever again we will never be a member of company no or ever..........

 163 agree | 100 disagree
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7:12 PM MST on Wed., Sep. 5, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
i think some one must have got to the media last thing that was said bout these fees was 21 days ago then everything stoped ,humm.they cant try to sweep it under the rugg if they like but its not going away november will prove it .

 133 agree | 130 disagree
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8:18 PM MST on Tue., Sep. 4, 2007 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
voteum out voteum out voteum out ,they think we the people of va are so stupid we will not see that this is a ripp off plain and simple ,they let on like oh this bill makes perfect sence and we the people are the stupid ones the people just dont understand it is all ,yea bull ,total abuse of power and a insult to every person in va.

 146 agree | 134 disagree
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7:10 PM MST on Mon., Sep. 3, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
police have been runing a open season on va taggs here every sence this law went in to effect steadily buring va drivers up sawum pull a dozen in 1 day here all on the same road,and noticed the police cars they were useingto do it with were all unmarked chevy impalas,they have gone tickett wild here sence new law passed pulling everything in site.

 147 agree | 115 disagree
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2:54 AM MST on Sat., Sep. 1, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
goverment is spending tax payers money like its water,if they were not so free with other peoples money ,they wouldent have to be comeing up with b.s. laws to take more of our money. the law systom is a compleate joke ,politics have made it that way, i though goverment and law was suppose to be seperate things to keep everything fair politicians are useing it as they see fit to suit there selfs ,when they do that it becomes a dictatorship instead of a free country were people are free to pick and choose .

 147 agree | 124 disagree
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2:16 PM MST on Fri., Aug. 31, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
i say if u get a tickett with these new fees on it throw it out the window if ever 1 did what would they do lock up 20 thousand people ,were would they lockum all up at ,jails are already full ,the whole law systom is a joke now anyway politicians have made them a joke by doing just this sort of thing here .they pull me they can lock me up i dont give a sh///t im not paying 1 dime .

 149 agree | 124 disagree
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8:58 PM MST on Tue., Aug. 28, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
gonna be alot fun come november watchen alot republicans walk (cant wait) bye bye boys.

 139 agree | 148 disagree
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8:54 PM MST on Tue., Aug. 28, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i saw on here people from nova saying oh we have to sett in traffic for a hour to get 10 miles and it makes us late getting home and we miss dinner with our familey,money to fix our roads have to come from some were , i say this not every 1 in va lives in nova and i could give a sh////t less bout your roads as i live no were close to there and never drive your roads so why should my money go to fix them if u dont like to set in traffic for a hour to get home move. not ever 1 lives in richmond looks like mabe all i reps do they want the whole state of va to pay for novas roads ,let nova pay for there roads leave us in southside be .

 125 agree | 105 disagree
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7:57 PM MST on Mon., Aug. 27, 2007 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i sure am glad the gov can only run one time he is suppose to be for the people of va how can he sleep at night knowing he passed a law that hurts the people that put there trust in him,and then pass a law that could hinder some to feed there famileys because of paying fees .compleatly not doing a thing to help the people he swore to repersent. the people have spoken he totaly ignores them ,guess its because there not important now that hes in office ,when he was running for gov we was important ,how soon they forget.

 157 agree | 122 disagree
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11:25 AM MST on Sun., Aug. 26, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i think there needs to be some write in to run against ablo griffin and howell u notice they get very cockie when theres no one running against them they wouldent be so cockie if some 1 was running against them in up comeing election.they wont run unoposed for ever if they keep there seat this time .we the people of va do not forget they wont run unopsed forever.

 131 agree | 126 disagree
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7:42 PM MST on Sat., Aug. 25, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
its no going away they can wait till january if they want to but it will do no good because by then alot of them wont have there seat ,so they will not be able to take another look at this bill ,do republicans really want to lose there seat over a stuipd bill as this ,why do u think kaine is not calling for a special session hes a demacrat hes gone let u guys hang yourself with this bill,and u republicans are still pushing it .is funny but i guess its your seats if u want to lose them thats your choice

 177 agree | 129 disagree
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7:26 PM MST on Sat., Aug. 25, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
hummm mabe there should be a write in to run against albo this time.what do the people of va say?

 141 agree | 156 disagree
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8:34 PM MST on Fri., Aug. 24, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i would like to know exactly from our reps what our county sticker money is spent on would like them to answer this question publicly other staes do not buy these stickers yet we do in va. other states are not cryng about there roads they dont get money from county stickers why do we pay for these stickers all across va at 20 bucks apeace and our reps say they need money for our roads just think of all the people that drive in va and have to buy these stickers at 20 bucks apeace think of all that money were is it going we the people of va would like to know.answer it please

 206 agree | 118 disagree
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8:23 PM MST on Fri., Aug. 24, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
do republicans really want to lose there seats in november over this junk bill. repeal it or i hope u have a good pair walking shoes come november.175 thousand people will not forget come november .repeal or walk

 161 agree | 154 disagree
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11:38 AM MST on Fri., Aug. 24, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
think this bill is going to protect people from bad drivers when it dosent apply to every driver on the road your dreaming .

 153 agree | 126 disagree
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11:28 AM MST on Fri., Aug. 24, 2007 re: "Legal battle begins over traffic fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
humm wonder why they have not held a open discussion to hear the peoples input about this bill.most people of va dident even know about this bill till it was passed and they heard about it on the news , and i know why they knew is was a b.s .bill when they passed it so they did it that way and said we dont care if the people like it or not it has passed so theres nothing they can do about it .pure abuse of power in the old days they were called gangsters when u paidum protection money.

 148 agree | 130 disagree
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7:56 PM MST on Thu., Aug. 23, 2007 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
if this bill sticks whats to stop them if one day they decide they need xtra money for something else to make a new law that puts a fee on other things. (hum our office windows need cleaning so we will pass a new law that any one cought touching a glass window in a store will be fined six hundred bucks and we will use some of this money to have our office windows cleaned). total b.s. were does it stop.

 163 agree | 135 disagree
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12:41 PM MST on Thu., Aug. 23, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i printed off a list with then names that voted yes to this and im takeing it with me when i go to vote.

 161 agree | 139 disagree
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8:36 PM MST on Wed., Aug. 22, 2007 re: "Virginia judge rules bad-driver penalties unconstitutional"

 Examiner Reader said:
its kinda hard to speed when u have the traffic jams they say they have in northern va, if this is the case then they must be pushing these new fees so the people of southern va can pay for northern va's roads i dont live in nothern va nor do i drive on the roads there so stick your new fees and your roads . (southside va)

 148 agree | 147 disagree
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7:58 PM MST on Tue., Aug. 21, 2007 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
rosco rynolds voted yes to this stupid driver fees bill to people in henry county are saying is good thing we have rosco mabe we can get this bill outa here . people need to look real close at who voted yes to this bill

 137 agree | 123 disagree
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10:14 AM MST on Sun., Aug. 19, 2007 re: "Legal action looming on Va.’s controversial fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
democrats are a joke, republicans are money grabbing crooks, and as a result u get new laws such as this imposed on the people . in november vote all that voted yes to these new fees out no matter what party they represent . they are not representing the people who voted for them thats for sure i will not vote for anyone that voted yes to this bill now or ever again .

 150 agree | 148 disagree
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8:55 PM MST on Sat., Aug. 18, 2007 re: "N.Va. legislator eyes expansion of driving fees"

 Examiner Reader said:
i think they all need a little more schooling come november with all the schooling they have already aparently they need a little more only this time it want be a lesson from a book it will be the lesson the people of va are tried of being ripped off and the lesson will start in november voteum out

 132 agree | 145 disagree
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7:23 PM MST on Sat., Aug. 18, 2007 re: "Va. driving fees won’t go away quickly"

 Examiner Reader said:
The State of Virginia is one of the finest in the Nation, but it has had more than it's share of renegade people in the Judical branch of government, for a very long time. It is not surprising that such an issue would occur here. I feel sorry for the citizens of this fine state. They can do better than retain the services of such intellectually inferior state prosecutors. Maybe the ghosts of Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson wil arise from their final resting places and chase them away! Given the weird things occurring now, this would be less weird, in comparison!

 132 agree | 115 disagree
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7:54 AM MST on Sat., Aug. 18, 2007 re: "Higher-ranking Henrico judge rules bad-driver fees are constitutional"

 Examiner Reader said:
whats the diference between a lawyer and a catfish one is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish

 136 agree | 148 disagree
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The Foundation for a Better Life
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